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#183724 - 01/20/09 10:21 PM 210.25(B)  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
210.25. Branch ckts in buildings with more than one occupancy.

210.25(B)- common area branch ckts.
Ma. has an exception:210.25(B)-

"Exception:Branch ckts supplying lighting outlets in common areas on the same floor as a dwelling unit in a new or existing two-family or an existing three-family building shall be permitted to be supplied from equipment that supplies one or more of those dwelling units."

My question: Existing two-family.
If I install interconnected smokes & CO det. (required in Ma.) for both units and common areas (2-family)and the common area lights (same ckt),Off of a tenants panel.
Side by side units 2 floors each. Existing house.(used to be owner occupied).

Would this be accepted?




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#183726 - 01/20/09 10:46 PM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: leland]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,857
Brick, NJ USA
Leland:
Here in NJ, any 'common area' has to be from a 'common area' (house) panel.

Common area definition is rather lengthy; I'll be brief.

Stairwells, hallways, etc common to all occupants. One heating unit for multiple occupants; a 'shared area (basement, etc)

Here, you could not do what you intend above, you would have to install a house/owner meter and panel.



John

#183728 - 01/20/09 10:51 PM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: HotLine1]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
Understood, That's why I included the "exception", Looking for interpretations.
Here,an over/under situation would not fly. The way I read it.


#183742 - 01/21/09 11:37 AM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: leland]  
KJay  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
MA, USA
Sounds like it is allowed, since MA Amendment 210.25, exception says branch circuits [plural] and both units are on the same level.
I personally donít like the idea of only one tenant having access to the circuit breaker supplying the smoke alarms for the entire building, even with the battery backups, but it sounds like itís perfectly okay as far as the exception goes.
If the circuit panels were both located in a common area like the hallway, basement or laundry, I wouldnít have any problem with it at all.

Leland: Are the CO alarms now required to be hard wired and interconnected between units in MA, or is this just because it is a single structure with no firewall separation?
Does this mean they are no longer allowing the individual 120V plug-in units with battery backup?



#183749 - 01/21/09 03:25 PM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: KJay]  
gfretwell  Online Content


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
Are smoke detectors "lighting outlets" in Massachusetts?

Quote
"Exception:Branch ckts supplying lighting outlets in common areas on the same floor as a dwelling unit in a new or existing two-family or an existing three-family building shall be permitted to be supplied from equipment that supplies one or more of those dwelling units."


Greg Fretwell

#183753 - 01/21/09 04:33 PM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: gfretwell]  
KJay  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
MA, USA
Good point Greg, the exception does only state lighting outlets.

I donít really like the idea of only one tenant having exclusive access to the smoke alarms circuit breaker anyway. If that tenant goes out of town for several days and for some reason the breaker trips, there could be an issue. Also, what happens if they move out and power is turned off to that unit?
I havenít done an existing two family conversion in several years, but the last time I did one, I wasnít allowed to have the two units interconnected. What I was allowed to do was have interconnected smoke alarms installed in each unit, supplied from each units own panel, keeping each unit separate. Then I extended one additional smoke alarm from each unit in each of the common areas, like the hallway, stairway and basement laundry area, basically giving redundant initiation in common areas.
Maybe the rules have changed. If so, it sounds like a house panel might be the only solution, possibly even if installing a low-voltage system.




#183764 - 01/21/09 10:26 PM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: KJay]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,857
Brick, NJ USA
Leland:
I read the exception again, and the comments above, and have to say 'No' again.

have you run this by the local AHJ in the town?

As I said, here you would need a house panel & meter.


John

#183771 - 01/22/09 01:10 AM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: HotLine1]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
New Info to follow:
HotLine, Why NO with the Exception?


KJAY: RE CO Detectors: Hard wired NO, just as simple to add the COMBOS tho, Battery or plug ins' are fine Mandatory since 3/2006- ALL buildings in MA. Government included. 527.CMR.30 Ma. General laws
I was in Falmouth today, Down that far?

Last edited by leland; 01/22/09 01:20 AM.

#183772 - 01/22/09 01:13 AM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: gfretwell]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
Greg: first point would be a light. Speculation I guess.


#183783 - 01/22/09 10:27 AM Re: 210.25(B) [Re: leland]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,857
Brick, NJ USA
Does the exception state 'on same floor/level'? IF your job falls under that, then it's OK; but....are smokes considered 'lighting outlets'?? I would think 'no'

Have you checked with the local AHJ?? I'm a Jersey guy, and as I said...it will not fly here. The Fire Sub-Code AHJ would not allow one dwelling unit to provide power for the smokes in a common area. IF the areas are not 'common' such as a stairwell for ONLY one of the units, that is a different story.



John

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