ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Three way switches

I notice now a bit late, that chico gave a much more detailed description of traveler juggling - oops -oh well.

(this makes page 4)

I challenge anyone. 1 months time under NORMAL operation to maintain that condition!
It's fun reading, but........ You folks are outa your MINDS!!! I meen that in a good way!

"All down" = "off" will always be true if you wired it that way.

I suppose we could install the switches sideways, but then there would be the argument over whether both left/both right = off or one left/one right = off! Still, that's better than ground up vs. ground down I suppose!

Well, Greg, you and I are going to have to disagree about that one! I've already described -twice- how an installation the starts off as 'down=off' changes the very first time you flip any switch.

I dare say that it's simply not possible for 'down=off' to remain true after the first switch operation.

I think you two are looking at this from a slightly different perspective.

If you wire so that both down = off, then clearly as soon as you move one switch up you will be left with the situation where the other switch being down will result in the light being on.

But however many times you operate the switches, these conditions will hold true:

1. Both switches down = Off
2. Both switches up = Off
3. One switch up, one switch down = On.

Swap the travelers over at one end only and these three conditions will always hold true:

1. Both switches down = On
2. Both switches up = On
3. One switch down, one switch up = Off

For systems with an odd number of switches (an odd number of 4-way ones), then you have:

1. All switches down = Off
2. All switches up = On
3. Even number of switches up, odd number of switches down = Off
4. Odd number of switched up, even number of switches down = On

Swap the travelers over at one end only and these four conditions will always hold true:

1. All switches down = On
2. All switches up = Off
3. Even number of switches up, odd number of switches down = On
4. Odd number of switched up, even number of switches down = Off

So the design rule choices could be narrowed down to:

1. All switches down = Off
2. All switches down = On
3. All switches up = Off
4. All switches up = On

I'd prefer #1. The reason is because if I ever needed to change the switches when I did not have a means to see what the effect is (e.g. power is out or light bulb is blown) I'd be wanting to turn them to off in almost all cases. In the rare case I want to leave a light on, I can set them all down then set one up.

After reading thru 4 pages of this (which I am still laughing at), unless I missed something (highly possible at my advanced state of senility), I think I may have found the flaw. I'm one of the anal people who has all the screws north/south & all lights off if all switches are down ... then along came the wife. She wanted the old rotary dimmer on the dining room 3way. Now I'm scr... uh ... out of luck.

Is it the rotary aspect she really wants? Or the push-in to turn it on and off?

If all she wants is the rotary, take a 3-way version of the rotary control and connect its travelers together. Then connect those paralleled travelers to the common of a normal 3-way switch right beside it. Then the normal switch travelers are connected in the usual way. Then you will have a dimmer with no on/off effect, and a real switch right beside it that can be oriented with up for on and down for off. That's if you have the space to add a switch next to it.

Steve,

You're not out of luck.

Dimmers are available (even rotary) in 3 way configurations.

http://www.lutron.com/rotary/?s=17000&t=17200