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#182707 - 12/07/08 12:32 PM Abandonded Sign Installations  
jes  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 103
CT
I get a lot of flak from the sign community for requiring them to disconnect branch circuits running to abandonded sign installations like neon. Now the branch circuit in the overhead is still connected to the xmfrs and often HV wiring still run to the old neon tube locations and just cut off. Too much work to take all that out...
Any suggestions on citations for doing this as opposed to 'just turning off the circuit breaker'?


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#182709 - 12/07/08 01:20 PM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: jes]  
HotLine1  Offline


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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,880
Brick, NJ USA
The ".25" articles within various 'low voltage' Articles addresses abandoned cabling, BUT, there is nothing specific regarding wiring that you specify.

Various local property maintenance codes may address your issues directly.

I would try a 1 on 1 conversation with the tenant/owner, and explain the fact that liability could be on there shoulders if someone were to get injured. Stressing that it is a more economical move to have wiring safed-off than getting involved with lawyers/insurance issues.



John

#182711 - 12/07/08 01:56 PM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: HotLine1]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Just disconnect at the breaker? Or, remove the old wire completely?

I can see that one might wish the wire to remain in place; there will likely be another sign out there someday.

Too many places operate their signs at the breaker, though, for me to be comfortable leaving the wires hooked up. Often the panels have markings by the breakers saying something like "On at night" or "Off at Closing." It's too easy for the remodelling crew to just flip everything on when they want light.


#182713 - 12/07/08 02:01 PM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: renosteinke]  
gfretwell  Offline


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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,142
Estero,Fl,usa
I like the "disconnect at the breaker" idea too. It prevents accidental energizing of the circuit but makes restoring the service easy if they restore the sign.


Greg Fretwell

#182724 - 12/07/08 10:50 PM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: gfretwell]  
electure  Offline


Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,262
Fullerton, CA USA
Disconnect it at the breaker and tag it "Abandoned Sign Circuit".




#182731 - 12/08/08 09:12 AM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: jes]  
jes  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 103
CT
I agree with the commentary but my question is can anyone point to a code or industry standard citation that requires action be taken other than turning off the breaker?


#182733 - 12/08/08 01:37 PM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: jes]  
renosteinke  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Congratulations! You found the "loophole!"

For some silly reason, the NEC requires nearly every sort of abandoned to be removed, or capped off and identified at both ends ..... except power wiring.

Don't misunderstand me, we're not talking about an exception that mentions power wiring; we're saying that the NEC simply fails to mention this little detail in the "older" parts of the code.

Blame it on the educational system. When the part about power wiring was written, it was probably assumed that any moron could figure out that you didn't want live wires dangling in the ceiling. Later, when the NEC began to address 'low voltage' trades, standards had changed, and it was realized that it was, in fact, necessary to spell this out. Alas, the never want back and added this to the power wiring sections.

Panel ID is a wonderful thing - I've gone so far as to mark panels in Chinese as well as English - but we all know the limitations of panel ID.

There's probably no law or code saying you can't hang a sign upside down .... but, as with dangling hot wires, I wouldn't think very well of someone who did that.

(You think I jest? I have a customer, a mini-mart, who found several signs mounted upside down when he bought the place. It seems the former owner had literacy issues! laugh )


#182746 - 12/08/08 08:18 PM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: renosteinke]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,880
Brick, NJ USA
Perhaps in one of the upcoming code revisions this may be brought up (again).



John

#182757 - 12/09/08 08:31 AM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: jes]  
jes  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 103
CT
Hotline, do you have a specific proposal you are referring to?


#182758 - 12/09/08 09:18 AM Re: Abandonded Sign Installations [Re: jes]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,880
Brick, NJ USA
JES:

Short & sweet...adding a ".25" to the power wiring and closing the loophole Reno stated above.

Common practice by 'most' EC's is to remove or safe-off power wiring, but...it's not mandated within the NEC.



John


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