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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3
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New Member
Oops, I just realized pressing "tab" key posts the comment. Sorry about the previous incomplete message.
So if there's only 1 GFCI in the garage, and 1 GFCI in the kitchen (on the countertop), does that kind of hint they're improperly on the same circuit despite the separate breaker labels in the service panel? The GFCIs didn't affect any other outlets either in the kitchen or garage.
What bothers me is someone tripping the garage GFCI, which in turns trips the kitchen counter GFCI where the crock pot has been running with the evening's beef stew. Resetting the garage GFCI is forgotten, as it doesn't affect any other outlets, so the kitchen GFCI remains without power all day and brews a poisonous meal.
It just doesn't seem right. So I'm grappling with how to report this condition and will keep following this thread so I can convey your perspectives to my colleagues at our regular association meeting. Thanks!

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,745
Likes: 13
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Member
You certainly have a problem, since the kitchen counter receptacle circuit "shall have no other outlets".

As for chaining GFCIs it can't be helped of you use equipment with a GFCI in the plug outside where the receptacle also requires GFCI. My boat lift and pressure cleaners work just fine this way.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 706
T
Member
If the garage GFCI trips the kitchen GFCI there's a problem with the wiring.Kitchen countertop circuits aren't allowed to come from the garage, or go from the kitchen to the garage. If there were a failure to trip I'd comment that the GFCIs manufactured before 2003 have a high failure rate, approx. 50%. I suspect a miswired multi-wire branch circuit, or an outlet extended from the kitchen to the garage is the issue, but it'll take an electrical contractor to sort it out.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,722
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SheBeInspector

Welcome back!

Glad the information posted was helpful.

In addition to the other Members' posts, I will address your latest reply.

Q1:

Quote

It's a thrill to be runnin' with the big dogs! Thanks for your replies, and I apologize for my vague, incorrect and/or sloppy electrical nomenclature. I'll work on it.


REPLY TO Q1:

No problem with the terms.
There is only one way to become "Fluent" in this Trade, and that is to study!
Coming here to ECN and asking questions will benefit your studies greatly.

Q2:

Quote

Now, back to the "dueling" GFCIs:
I found separate breakers for the kitchen & garage in the service panel and the kitchen countertop GFCI tested as 120v, "wiring OK" with my Sure-Test, as did the garage GFCI.


REPLY TO Q2:

Great.
That's what I was hoping to hear (actually "See"...)



Q3:

Quote

So if there's only 1 GFCI in the garage, and 1 GFCI in the kitchen (on the countertop), does that kind of hint they're improperly on the same circuit despite the separate breaker labels in the service panel? The GFCIs didn't affect any other outlets either in the kitchen or garage.


REPLY TO Q3:

Not really.

The way to find out if the Circuit marked "Garage" also feeds the Kitchen would be to turn off the Circuit Breaker in the Panelboard marked "Garage", then see if any of the Kitchen Outlets are de-energized.
Check them prior to turning off the Breaker to verify that they are indeed energized.

If the "Garage" Circuit also turns off Kitchen Outlets (or other outlets), then it may be likely that when the GFCI Receptacle trips, these outlets on the same Circuit will be affected - as they would be protected by that GFCI.
This would have to be verified by re-energizing the Circuit, pressing the "TEST" Button on the Garage GFCI Receptacle, then testing the Outlets to see if they are energized.

The only way to verify Circuitry is to physically test by turning off given Circuit Breakers per the Identified Circuit in the Circuit Directory, then testing the Outlets with the proper testing equipment.

Be sure your testing equipment is in good operating order, is correct for the tests to be performed, and is Certified for the Voltages to be applied to (such as CATIII).

***** DISCLAIMER + SAFETY MESSAGE *****

While I am on the subject of proper test equipment, I really need to make the following statement regarding Personal Safety around Energized Electrical Equipment:...

There is no need to remove any Panelboard Covers, or any Receptacle Devices to perform these tests.
Please do not let _ANYONE_ remove Panelboard Covers, devices (Receptacles), or talk you into removing any of these things.
There is no need to remove these items, and in order to perform the tests correctly, these items must be in place.
Besides, there is just too much danger involved with Live exposed parts: Shock, Burns, Arc Faults from Short Circuits causing permanent injury, major Burns, blindness, even death!

If, for any reason - at any time, you do not feel comfortable or confident in performing any tests, or being around Energized Electrical Equipment, DO NOT PERFORM THE TESTS!!!
Request a Qualified Individual to perform the testing.

Believe me, even a simple test may result in an explosive Fault (Short Circuit), or someone getting stuck to an Energized Circuit without being able to let go, or let anyone know they are being shocked - until that Person loses conscienceness (normally by then it is too late).

I am not trying to be an Ass (pardon the language), I just want to make this known.
This applies to anyone.

OK, Soapbox Mode is "OFF" now, so back to the replies!!!

Q4:

Quote

What bothers me is someone tripping the garage GFCI, which in turns trips the kitchen counter GFCI where the crock pot has been running with the evening's beef stew. Resetting the garage GFCI is forgotten, as it doesn't affect any other outlets, so the kitchen GFCI remains without power all day and brews a poisonous meal.


REPLY TO Q4:

Yes, this is a valid issue, however it is outside the SCOPE of the NEC , as the minimum safety compliance has been met.
This is what would be known as a "DESIGN ISSUE"

The exception here being that the Garage Receptacle is included with the "Small Appliance Branch Circuits"(SABC), of which there are a minimum of Two (2) intended for the Kitchen Counter area.
These SABC's may also feed outlets in the "same area" as the Kitchen.

Refer to NEC Article 220 for complete information per the SABCs

If the Garage Receptacle (or any other outlets not in the listed areas) is included with the SABCs, this would be nonconformance to NEC Article 220, and would be a Code Violation.... provided:
  1. The Dwelling is subject to the NEC,
  2. The Dwelling was built prior to the 2 SABC Restrictions,
  3. There are already 2 SABC at the Kitchen


One must be familiar with the NEC Version used during the time a given Structure was built, along with criteria involved with a remodel. In addition, what the AHJ uses as "Model Code" - if any Code is observed.

Q5:

Quote

It just doesn't seem right. So I'm grappling with how to report this condition and will keep following this thread so I can convey your perspectives to my colleagues at our regular association meeting. Thanks!


REPLY TO Q5:

Please review this latest message, and if you have any questions or comments, feel free to post them here.
You may also contact me via Private Message if you wish to.

Good luck with everything.

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20
D
Member
Although the current and last bunch of cycles of the code do not permit it, having an outside recp on a kitchen circuit was accepted and approved as an exception of the NEC. I don't have old code books but I do remember that being OK. I personally would rather have more GFCI's that are there to protect personal and property than seeing 200 feet of underground wire being protected in a conduit full of water and having the HO want those GFCI's removed because nuisance tripping.
Dave

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,335
S
Member
Originally Posted by SheBeInspector
For example, if there's a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen, and another in the garage, the kitchen GFCI won't trip and/or reset as expected.

Can it be confirmed that if there is power or not when the gfci will not trip? A GFCI will not reset if there is not power to it. In general, you can put multiple gfci's inline and one will not effect the other.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
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