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Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: gfretwell] #178743 06/10/08 05:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
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electech Offline
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Hydrogen was a distraction to hide slashes in research? If what has been achieved lately is the result of slashes, then we need more slashing.

Maybe my glass are too rose tinted, but I see:

3rd Generation Prius

Killacycle demonstrating electric isn't just for crawling to the organic food co-op in a clown car.

Tremendous improvement in lithium-ion batteries, and that's before late-2007 when Stanford researchers announced technology that would improve capacity by maybe a factor of 10!

Chevy Volt announcement.

Ford Escape hybrid demonstrating hybrid technology in vehicle types people actually want. Once again erasing the "nerd factor".

Huge growth in the number of flex-fuel E85 vehicles from mostly US manufacturers (and a few Japanese models). http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

Wind energy actually starting to look meaningful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms#Operating_or_under_construction

Renewed interest in nuclear.

And even hydrogen has seen big improvements, to the point it may be feasible.
http://www.physorg.com/news2273.html

Maybe all the slashing was on wasteful government programs, because this combination of private/public advancement we have seen lately is pretty impressive. And if this was done without taking more money from me (ultimately under threat of violence - that's what the tax code is) then I'm all for it.

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Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: electech] #178759 06/10/08 10:27 PM
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gfretwell Offline
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Hydrogen from a nuclear reactor is about the only way hydrogen makes any sense. I doubt that is what most hydrogen people are thinking this miracle will happen. They still believe the perpetual motion machine guy's schemes to simply "get" the hydrogen from sea water for free.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: gfretwell] #178760 06/10/08 10:48 PM
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renosteinke Offline
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Sure, Greg ... I'm still waiting for Delorean to come out with the "Mr. Fusion" powerplant laugh

Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: electech] #178762 06/11/08 06:44 AM
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SteveFehr Offline OP
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Where's my hydrogen car, though? Where's the nuclear plants required to produce all that hydrogen? The only fuel cell cars on the road right now are demonstration models, as there's no distribution infrastructure. It was always a dead-end technology that merely sounded good.

Imagine what good might have come if all that money was invested into developing PHEV technology. And the market pressures that would have accellerated it if CAFE standards hadn't been dropped. The recent advances we've seen should have come about 5 years ago.

But that's all water under the bridge, now, the question is what lies ahead. When I posted this thread, I was curious to see what ideas you all might have about the residential grid itself. As it stands now, no PHEV is sold with a timer, nor is any legislation like that planned. Without TOD monitoring, there is no incentive to install a timer, either- I don't know about you all, but I'd sure like to get home at 5pm and be able to drive my car again at 7pm.

What is the impact to the grid going to be? Will it be slow failure that the pocos can keep up with, or are we going to see massive simultanous failures across the nation that will leave the pocos and equipment manufacturers standing around haplessly? I don't see any financial incentive for the pocos to upgrade the infrastructure early. It's in their best interest to just wait for it to fail- the week or so those customers are without power isn't enough of a loss in income to justify the payback time on a transformer and upgraded line. TOD metering is the easy quick fix, but that's going to be wildly unpopular... I sure as hell don't want one on my house.

Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: SteveFehr] #178764 06/11/08 07:30 AM
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HotLine1 Offline
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Steve:
Wow, the side effects that this subject broaches didn't sink-in at the start of this thread!
The area I live in had local grid issues, and it seems the state had to jump up & down to have improvements made. We had a major fail on the barrier island over a holiday weekend that created major financial issues to the tourist industry. That was corrected, another transmission line installed, and additional (local) trans work is being done.

Situations of resi additions, and conversions of what were 'summer homes' to year round residences, with a lot of toys added demand to the local transmission and secondary lines, and one hot day....transformer failure.

Solutions? Upgrade the grid? Upgrade local sub-stations? Upgrade local primary and secondary systems? Sure! It should happen; but when? and who picks up the tab? Higher electric rates are coming here, along with natural gas, propane, and ALL other fuels or forms of energy.



John
Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: HotLine1] #178770 06/11/08 02:07 PM
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electech Offline
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Had we not had the SUV craze of the 90's, and had CAFE standards been toughened up to require 40 mpg average on cars, we might not being seeing many of the recent developments. There's a fair bit of irony there. Had we (the entire world, not just the U.S.) been better about saving resources and protecting the environment, we would not have had such large increases in energy costs. Without expensive energy, money poured into alternative energy research would look wasteful to private investors and vote-conscious short-term-thinking politicians. Odd that.

Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: electech] #178771 06/11/08 02:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
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gfretwell Offline
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We won't really get serious about alternate energy sources until oil prices get up to the cost of the alternate.
Some things like hydrogen from any source than nuclear and most biofuel will probably never make sense but we may be using more wind and solar. The problem is still what you do when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: gfretwell] #178772 06/11/08 03:20 PM
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jdevlin Offline
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Hydrogen come from electricity which comes from coal, nuclear etc. Run the proper electric charge through water and get hydrogen and oxygen.

Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: jdevlin] #178773 06/11/08 03:44 PM
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LarryC Offline
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Originally Posted by jdevlin
Hydrogen come from electricity which comes from coal, nuclear etc. Run the proper electric charge through water and get hydrogen and oxygen.


That method is inefficient at best and it is going to put quite the load on the water delivery systems. We can scrub hydrogen from petroleum fuels but that leads to other issues. Breaking apart other hydrogen bearing compounds gets rather interesting also.

Also that little thing about storing all them itty bitty tiny H2 molecules. High vacuum containers are rated in the number of Hydrogen molecules per minute that leak thru them. Hydrogen migrates thru SOLID METAL!!

Analogy time. Try building a tank to hold BB's with chain link fencing. How sucessful are you?

So once you produce all of this Hydrogen, how are going to transfer it to your car gas tank?

Just my .00000000000000000000000002 cents

Larry C

Re: Electric Vehicles and the impact to our power grid [Re: LarryC] #178776 06/11/08 05:56 PM
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gfretwell Offline
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Electech put his finger on it, if you can get your hydrogen using waste heat from a nuclear reactor you might have a sustainable source but the volume we would need to put a dent in gasoline use is so great I doubt we will ever have that amount of reactors.


Greg Fretwell
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