ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion Building Codes for Electricians Kitchen Hoods (Commercial)

Forgive me if this seems like a rant .... I've just had a series of experiences that, IMO, are inexcusable.

The topic this time may involve commercial kitchen exhaust hoods - but the potential for this sort of problem arises every time more than one trade is involved in the installation of something.

I'll try to be specific in my 'rants' as I describe the chain of events.

For nearly 6 months, I've been involved in building a place that includes a commercial kitchen. During all this time, I never received and specifications from the (invisible) "Hood guy." The only function of the "hood guy" was to hook up the fire suppression system. I never saw his print until literally seconds before the first inspection, and still lack a copy.

Nor have I ever, on any of these jobs, received a 'sequence of operation.' You can forget about ladder diagrams. There is ZERO communication between the 'hood guys,' the HVAC crew, and the architect. I guess they draw it, and I'm the guy who's supposed to figure it out. The experience is like buying a car - then having to assemble the dashboard from parts found at the hardware store.

RANT #1: If the equipment is supposed to operate a certain way ... and is supposedly a complete unit ... it ought to have complete instructions, and I ought to need to do no more than bring power to it!

RANT #2: I need copies of ALL prints and specifications - before the work is done.

Anyway, the big day comes. I've cobbled the hood system to the HVAC, so that tripping the hood kills the HVAC that brings fresh air in. Tying the HVAC into the hood so that it operates whenever the exhaust fan operates is a bit of a problem; I have a control conflict. That the thermostat is in another room doesn't help.

Minutes before the inspection, the hood guy comes in, and hangs a bell on the unit - a bell that I need to wire. Naturally, there are NO instructions specifying WHEN the bell is supposed to ring. The hood guy also gives me a spiel as to how much better, more code conscious, more competent, etc., his firm is than the competition. He also implies that I have never done any of these systems. His sermon is full of 'code say this' and 'code says that', with a sprinkling of 'local amendments' thrown in.
I ask: What code are you referring to? He not only lacks a copy, he does not even know the name. He does assert something erroneous about the NEC - I offer to get my copy from the truck. He declines my offer .... and the AHJ arrives.

Naturally, we fail. We're not ready. Hood guy tells the GC there will be a charge for his return visit. I ask the inspector what code they're using - I'm getting tired of vague generalities about how the system should perform. Especially since the hood guy has made an assertion that the system needs to do "X".
The AHJ does not know the name of the code. He knows not where / how to get a copy. He is unaware of any local amendments.

RANT #3: I expect any inspector to at least know the name of the law he's enforcing!

Thanks to the wonder of the internet, I have a copy of the appropriate code the next day. It was referred to in the fine print on the hood guy's drawing.
Remember I told you the hood guy insisted that the system was required to do "X?" Guess what? The code (NFPA 96) specifically states "the system will NOT be required to do "X"!"
BTW, "X" is discussed in 8.2.3.2 of NFPA 96. I've left out a detailed description so as to keep on track.

I discuss this with the AHJ, and he agrees. Re-inspection is scheduled.

The bell the hood guy gave me is bad. He replaces it, and says I wired it wrong. I make the necessary changes.
I still have that control problem with the HVAC unit. Thanks to a lot of help from the HVAC guy, we get it worked out.

The inspector arrives, and the hood guy goes through his 'dog and pony' show. Purely by chance, I'm sure, the first thing he does is show the bell operation. Amazingly, it works the way he wants.
He continues his demonstration, repeatedly drawing attention to the fact that the system failed to do "X."
I really, really enjoyed trumping him with his own code!

Now ... remember the control problem? Well, without getting into the details of the specific application, it appears, from 8.3 of NFPA 96, there was no requirement to tie this HVAC unit into the hood system! I doubt that the hood was capable of drawing the required vacuum ... nor was the fresh air supplied internally to the hood.
Lesson: You not only need to know the other guy's code, and have a copy of it, ... you need to plan ahead, and teach them their own code!

Talking to the hood guy's boss was of little help. Himself also but a tiny cog in a monster firm, I don't think he has ever seen NFPA 96 either.

If you've read this far, thank you for your patience. I am open to comments - as well as feedback as to whether my experience was unusual.

Now the you vented, do you feel better? Did you keep the GC and your shop on everything that happened, when it happened? Was the design (hood) ever reviewed by the fire marshall and approved?

Hi&&*R? From Alabama?

Was It in your scope, specs,or thrust upon you?
Typicaly,The Suppresion guys will tell you nothing until they need it (I know, I used to be one . (still am kinda))

#1) This would depend on the size of the hood. Typicaly, Provide a shunt-trip for the gas and power,leaving the exhaust runing.

#2) RANT #2: I need copies of ALL prints and specifications - before the work is done.

----Good luck with this!!!----

Anyway, the big day comes. I've cobbled the hood system to the HVAC, so that tripping the hood kills the HVAC that brings fresh air in. Tying the HVAC into the hood so that it operates whenever the exhaust fan operates is a bit of a problem; I have a control conflict. That the thermostat is in another room doesn't help.

--Control power to the contact for the EF first,Then the relay for the shut down, then to T-stat and make up air.---

Minutes before the inspection, the hood guy comes in, and hangs a bell on the unit - a bell that I need to wire. Naturally, there are NO instructions specifying WHEN the bell is supposed to ring.

--On Discharge--- thru the normaly open in the unit.---
but, without direction, don't assume.

The hood guy also gives me a spiel as to how much better, more code conscious, more competent, etc., his firm is than the competition. He also implies that I have never done any of these systems. His sermon is full of 'code say this' and 'code says that', with a sprinkling of 'local amendments' thrown in.
I ask: What code are you referring to? He not only lacks a copy, he does not even know the name. He does assert something erroneous about the NEC - I offer to get my copy from the truck. He declines my offer .... and the AHJ arrives.

------Most in this feild are one dimensional! Most, not all,Consider the source. I know. They know what they know and... thats about it.
Most are licensed thru the fire marshal and have little to no electrical experience. The CO. I worked for... I was the ONLY journeyman, and only 2 "D" licenses!!!! 1 was a supervisor who was Grand fatherd in!!!!! (30 field guys)

Trained Monkeys comes to mind. But very good at 1 (one) thing.------


Naturally, we fail. We're not ready. Hood guy tells the GC there will be a charge for his return visit. I ask the inspector what code they're using - I'm getting tired of vague generalities about how the system should perform. Especially since the hood guy has made an assertion that the system needs to do "X".
The AHJ does not know the name of the code. He knows not where / how to get a copy. He is unaware of any local amendments.

----Wow, Imagine that!!! Here the fire marshals do all the fire related inspections. And They (most) ARE VERY SHARP!!!
I like that, you can have a good stimulating intelligent conversation.-----

Good luck Reno.

Good luck with this!!!

Great reply, Leland ... I really appreciate it.

I don't want to get side-tracked into the specifics of that HVAC unit; suffice to say I could shut it down, but not re-start it.

Good luck? Not needed. System is working to AHJ's satisfaction - thanks to the HVAC guy.

I've been rather vague as to the jurisdiction, and the contractor involved - simply because that should not be relevant. No sense in going off in that direction!

The fact is, we often work along with other trades. Whether it be the plumber and his lift station, the HVAC/ reefer guy, the sign guy, the alarm guy .... and we need to know something of their trade, something of their codes, in order to do our job properly. As this example so aptly illustrates, we cannot assume that they know their own trade!

So ... since I've done several hoods over the past few years ... I really should have read NFPA 96 a long time ago. I've been lax.

What other codes do we need to know? Or. will we continue to depend on what someone once told us? Here are a few examples; see if you can cite the code that:

A) Tells us where exit signs and 'bugeyes' are needed?

B) Tells us when we need to use the red putty pads on our boxes?

C) Tells us that piping inside a walk-in cooler can't be run flat on the surface?

D) Tells us we can't use lots of recessed (incandescent) lights?

E) Tells us where to place the alarm strobes?


(Winner gets a free invite to the evening chat )

I had the same type of issue, and did more than my share fare of the work, more so out of my scope just to get the job done. It seems to me that EC has to know everyone's job, yet the other trades can be clueless of ours??? Guess it shows who the leader of the craftman'mens,s. is. Rest assure this happens all over

I would like to PUBLICALY RETRACT this statement.
"Trained monkeys"

The guys I worked with in the suppression business were/are very good at what they do.
This Industry is 2 fold- And I forgot that.

1) Is the mechanical end (kitchens,gas stations,chemical tank farms,portables,Dry chem,foam,water mist, etc.) some very large.
And serious calculations needed-on site to confirm the design-

The other is the high end DATA ctrs and the like.I personaly have done some systems with over 1000 (1 Thousand) devices,including actuation and detection(excluding notification).With as many as 6 or more coverd hazards.

The mechanical guys are on top of all the current codes in their field. But no others.

Suppression is a field of its' own.With it's own set of rules.NFPA yes, The life safety, NO.Property protection is key. (well paying too).
I had a bad taste with my former employer and unfortunately that blead thru.

But I stand by the fact that there were only 3 (three) state licenses on board.
The rest were state fire marshal "certificates" for fire suppression. Thats well and good.

This state, no suppression work for you unless the FM authorizes and tests you for it.

5) catagories)
1-self serve facilities 9GAS STATIONS
2-PORTABLES
3-Engineered fixed systems. (fm 200-Inergen-etc. (data ctrs) old halon.
4-Pre-Engineered fixed systems (Kitchens)
5- Hydrostatic testing- For pres cylinders before refill.
One will not allow you to do the other, you need each specific one .

However,they have technitions crossing the line with service and modifications.

Should I push the issue with the state? Or let it go on?

I have my answer. Would like your thoughts.

List this: RANT:5

Hey Reno, lay off that fire guy. He is my competion, and my best salesman. If he actually knew what he is supposed to know, and did what he is supposed to do, my business would not be as successful as it is.

Not all of us fire guys operate like that. If you ask me to show you the code, I can. I have the codes, NFPA, Oregon Mechanial, Oregon Fire Code, and Mfg installation manuals, that pertain to the scope of our work, as do my techs. If there is confusion, I do not hesitate to get the book out and learn something. We also take classes that apply to our work.

Like you, I am continually am amazed at the trades that do not know the code issues and never attend any classes. This year we have attended classes on exhaust system installs and maintanence, and will be attending classes on extinguishers this weekend.

30 years in the trade, and still learning.

Fireguy; I hear you, I understand you and I agree completely.
An older and wiser E.C. than me once told me that he absolutely loved those DIY books from Sears...they guaranteed that he'd have plenty of work during the winter months fixing things that the novices messed up trying to save a few bucks.

Ghost... you're right on the money with regard to DIY books.

The number one error I keep seeing: a switch leg brought to the outlet box as white but banded black.

Those who can do; those who can't illustrate a book.

I'm not sure I follow. It's legal to use the white as an ungrounded conductor as long as it stays that way, not switching it on and off, even without phasing it another color. If it gets switched then phasing it black is OK.

200.7(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Reno,


A) Tells us where exit signs and 'bugeyes' are needed?

B) Tells us when we need to use the red putty pads on our boxes?

C) Tells us that piping inside a walk-in cooler can't be run flat on the surface?

D) Tells us we can't use lots of recessed (incandescent) lights?

E) Tells us where to place the alarm strobes?


I am not in my office yet, but I believe a lot of these questions can be answered in the NFPA for example, where to put exit and emergency would depend on the footcandles required at the means of egress.

When to use putty pads comes down to the fire rating of the wall. If the wall has to be fire rated, you must make sure that there aren't too many openings between the walls. Same goes for recess lights. I was on 1 job where you couldn't have more than 10 sq feet inside a 100 sq ft area. So the job was limited to 4 recess lights per room.

As for running a pipe inside a walk in cooler, I am not sure that I have heard that one before.

Harold:
The pipe parallel and tight to the box finish wall/ceiling I believe is a Health issue (NSF) for cleaning.

Rated walls & ceilings are limited to 100 square inches, per 100 square feet. Found within the UL White Book. Some info is within the UL for various mfg device boxes.

Putty pads are a solution to boxes on adjacent sides of a rated wall within 24" of each other, or any other penetrations in said wall.

Egress is within NFPA and Building here in NJ

Alarm strobes and pulls are NFPA.

Reno overlooked ADA requirements? Utility Co requirements?

John is right about the NSF issue. The intent here is to allow easy cleaning and not create crevices where nasties can hide from the cleaning crew.

I have to chuckle at your cooler requirements and the conduits not laid flush on the walls. I have dealt with many coolers, many are large buildings and for us, conduit flush on the surface is not an issue, but then again, our coolers are for trees, not food for human consumption. Well, I guess nuts may be harvested much later in the trees growth.

In other words, there are always different requirements and it is always good for someone to place those somewhere in the plans for clarity. I will try to remember on my plans to refer to the plans showing the fire ratings which I think will be helpful for those who install.

The NFPA is a publishing house - nothing more - and sells all manner of books they call 'codes.' The NEC is only one of these codes.

Even so, there are many codes that have no connection with the NFPA at all.

For example, while the NFPA does discuss bugseye placement in their 'life safety code,' it is the non-NFPA "Building Code" (IBC/UBC) that is actually adopted and enforced. The entire 'egress lighting' issue originates in the ICC "building code."

Ditto for the use of putty pads; it's a 'building code' issue.

How things are mounted in a cooler is discussed in the health code. While a USDA code exists, it is the local code, and the local interpretation, that governs.

Likewise, the hood installation will have to be approved by the local fire marshall. It's rather interesting, in that I have yet to find a jurisdiction that has actually adopted the NFPA 'hood codes.' Nor have I met the inspector who even has access to one - let alone read it! In such situations, anything you can produce will greatly help your case.

Which brings us to two of my pet peeves:
1) IMO, there are far too many codes= and inspecting agencies; and,
2) IMO, you simply cannot become a competent inspector by sitting in a classroom or going to seminars- you need to master the trade first. This trend to seminar-educated 'combination' inspectors is a travesty.

Yes, I 'overlooked' a few things

That only illustrates the need to know more - far more- than the NEC.

I made only passing reference to the other issues, and did not go into details, as those other items are not related to commercial hoods. The point that there is more than NFPA 70 in our lives was most relevant.

Remain ignorant of these other issues, and you get all manner of grief and call-backs. My own appreciation of these issues was greatly increased the day I became the 'owner' and could no longer charge for my time .

You better get used to combination inspectors. They are the ones most likely to have made it through the current building slowdown. When building departments downsize they will use the number of licenses as one of the prime factors of who to keep and who to let go. You can be the best electrical inspectors in the world but if you can't do the plumbing inspections they need to hire another guy. (same for mechanical and structural)

Reno said "That only illustrates the need to know more - far more- than the NEC"

Those are very true words!

Here in Nj we have the UCC (Uniform Construction Code) 5:23 et al, which is the "bible", and it still amazes me how many electrical contractors do NOT know it exists.

Short & sweet, it contains ALL statewide codes, with the exception of the local POCO requirements, along with ALL administrative requirements.

Yes, we as ECs, and electrical inspectors have to 'know' what is required, and who is responsible for enforcement of what.

Anyone who has any interest in looking at it, it's at the NJ DCA website. (Link to follow)

John,


I was in business over 15 years ago and quite frankly, I don't think I remember the UCC being as important back then as it is now with the "Rehab" code, etc.

Greg,

Unfortunately it is true what you and Reno said about the AHJ's and I believe that every AHJ should have been in the field. Yet in my state of NJ, if you hold multiple lic. you have a better chance of being employed.

John,


You just reminded me of another issue. Installing electrical panels in the wall or surface mounting. If it is on the wall between the garage and the living space in the house, would it be allowed?

Harold:
Yes, I'm a firm believer in prior field experience for a qualification for inspectors licenses. (I omitted this comment in the above post)

Book smart is a good thing, but experience sometimes can be much better.

That part is a fine line to walk but as far I know in Wisconsin if the panels are mounted on surface that is not a issue but in the wall { flush mounted } that can get sticky due the fire codes will trump this { I don't have excat art on this one }

However in Paris everything on panel have to be surface mounted if between the garage and living quarters { there are few other local codes will add along the way }

Merci.
Marc

Harold:
Any 'rated' wall cannot have a membrane (sheetrock) penetretion exceeding 100 sq inches, per 100 square feet, as I understand.

Surface mounting is acceptable, as long as there are no penetrations exceeding the above behind the panel.

Jurisdictional responsibilities are building along with elec, plumb & fire dependent on what the item is.

Sorry for the delayed response, I missed this one as you posted it.

I was surprised to find Florida only wants 15 minutes between the garage and the house and 1 hour in the ceiling if there was living space above it (based on the IRC)
When I was in Maryland (1978 or so) they wanted an hour on the wall too.
I see garages with hollow core doors here and that was what brought my attention to it.

Greg,

An FTO is formal technical opinion from the state in our Uniform Construction Code about fire rating in a dwelling, I will have to check it out when I get by my UCC code book.

John,

Another AHJ told me about the FTO in the UCC about fire rating in a dwelling unit. I haven't read it yet, I will when I get a chance.

Anyone else think that the finer points of fire-rated construction deserves it's own thread?

Sounds like a plan Reno!
Let's get one going.