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Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: Zog] #175452 03/01/08 02:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
Y
Yoopersup Offline OP
Member
Back to my Main Question .
Ist off NEC requires 110.16 Arc Flash warning Stickers Only.
70-E a safety program which requires a Hazard Risk Evaluation, Which produces the requirement that the Informatin stickers be posted.Then it says Hazards over 50v require protection if Hazard Analize requires. Now Just getting Picky here . Panels, Swithgear, starters, Anything that might be worked on hot. BUT where does it stop and where in the Book does it says that it stops.
Read 130.2C in 70-E , it plainly states live parts operatoring over 50 volts.
Yoopersup

Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: Yoopersup] #175454 03/01/08 05:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 599
J
JBD Offline
Member
Originally Posted by Yoopersup
Back to my Main Question .
Ist off NEC requires 110.16 Arc Flash warning Stickers Only.
70-E a safety program which requires a Hazard Risk Evaluation, Which produces the requirement that the Informatin stickers be posted.Then it says Hazards over 50v require protection if Hazard Analize requires. Now Just getting Picky here . Panels, Swithgear, starters, Anything that might be worked on hot. BUT where does it stop and where in the Book does it says that it stops.
Read 130.2C in 70-E , it plainly states live parts operatoring over 50 volts.
Yoopersup


NFPA 70E-2004 (the one in effect now) does not require any stickers/labels/posted information other than what is needed to meet NEC 110.16. The next version of 70E is supposed to require labels.

Whenever you work near (the next 70E will say something like "interact with") energized parts >=50V you need to wear appropriate shock and arc flash PPE. This always applies, there are no exceptions.

You may choose arc flash PPE based on calculations or per the "task tables" in 130.7(C)(9). Most system studies base their calculations on IEEE-1584. This standard does not have any method of calculating arc flash incident energy values for single phase or DC circuits, so you are left using the task table for these systems.

Everyone should remember that 70E is not just about arc flash. 70E requires that all employers adopt an Electrical Safe Work Practices program. This program needs to address at least: PPE, maintenance, LOTO, training, and live work permits. I find it unlikely that someone can be adequately trained in NFPA 70E requirements by attending a manufacturer's 2hr seminar on arc flash only.

Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: JBD] #175469 03/02/08 10:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
Y
Yoopersup Offline OP
Member
So your saying anything over 50v olts has to have a Shock Hazard Analysis??? (EVERYTHING??).I do not think thats the true meaning.
Next point I know I could not find where stickers are spelled out BUT 110.8B & 110.B1(a) REQUIRES a Shock Hazard Analyis to determine the Voltage, Boundry Requirements, Protective Equipment. If this information is NOT posted where a working can readily view it by the Electrical Equipment his to work on How is he to know whats required to meet 70-E .So Stickers are in a indirect way are being required or they"ll be a lot of LOST time and Production while guys look for the required Info. (Yes I know about the work permits, training , ect.)
Also every Company that Does this or 90% Does put the stickers on the Gear.
Article EC&M June 1,2003 Preventing Arc Flash Incidents,
NFPA 70E States WARNING LABLES ON EQUIPMENT required.
Where'd they come up with it?
Are there 2th Stage stickers on the Gear in the areas you work?? If not do you do an on site Arc Flash Analsis every time??
YoopersUp

Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: Yoopersup] #175486 03/02/08 03:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 599
J
JBD Offline
Member
NFPA70E "contains" the NEC, so yes NEC 110.16 is required by NFPA 70E. The next edition of 70E will have additional labeling requirements, so this discussion may be different next year.

For all intents 70E really came into its own as a "standard" with the 2004 edition. So any trade magazine article from 2003 would be based on the previous version which had drastically different requirements.

You are correct most companies do put arc flash and shock hazard labels on their equipment. However there are some companies that have had studies performed and then adopted a minimum PPE level of HRC=1 @ 480V for all electrical work unless the equipment is labeled differently (in many facilites this ratio is often 80:20 or even 90:10). Some companies treat NFPA 70E labeling similar to that for hazardous materials and confined space both of which also require training, work permits, and proper PPE.

There are advantages and disadvantages to any method, the important thing is that the in house employees are properly trained and all contract workers are advised of these safe work practices.

Last edited by JBD; 03/02/08 03:17 PM.
Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: JBD] #175505 03/03/08 08:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 120
Z
Zog Offline
Member
Originally Posted by JBD
Originally Posted by Yoopersup
Back to my Main Question .
Ist off NEC requires 110.16 Arc Flash warning Stickers Only.
70-E a safety program which requires a Hazard Risk Evaluation, Which produces the requirement that the Informatin stickers be posted.Then it says Hazards over 50v require protection if Hazard Analize requires. Now Just getting Picky here . Panels, Swithgear, starters, Anything that might be worked on hot. BUT where does it stop and where in the Book does it says that it stops.
Read 130.2C in 70-E , it plainly states live parts operatoring over 50 volts.
Yoopersup


NFPA 70E-2004 (the one in effect now) does not require any stickers/labels/posted information other than what is needed to meet NEC 110.16. The next version of 70E is supposed to require labels.

Whenever you work near (the next 70E will say something like "interact with") energized parts >=50V you need to wear appropriate shock and arc flash PPE. This always applies, there are no exceptions.

You may choose arc flash PPE based on calculations or per the "task tables" in 130.7(C)(9). Most system studies base their calculations on IEEE-1584. This standard does not have any method of calculating arc flash incident energy values for single phase or DC circuits, so you are left using the task table for these systems.

Everyone should remember that 70E is not just about arc flash. 70E requires that all employers adopt an Electrical Safe Work Practices program. This program needs to address at least: PPE, maintenance, LOTO, training, and live work permits. I find it unlikely that someone can be adequately trained in NFPA 70E requirements by attending a manufacturer's 2hr seminar on arc flash only.


Well put, those 2 hr sessions just break the ice of the 70E. The 70E emcompasees many things as you said, many people refer to the 70E as arc flash oor how to work hot. One of the first articles in 70E says DONT WORK ON ENERGIZED EQUIPMENT, then it lists a few exceptions, followed by 100 pages of how to work safely on energized equipment, but the 1st statement is often overlooked.


MV/HV Testing Specialist, "BKRMAN"
Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: Zog] #175510 03/03/08 12:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,213
S
SteveFehr Offline
Member
Wow, thanks Zog! And yes, I was joking about the cotton shirt and dry hands, if that makes you feel better.

Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: SteveFehr] #175530 03/03/08 07:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 120
Z
Zog Offline
Member
I was about 90% sure you were joking, but you never know, i have heard carzier beliefs on requirements.


MV/HV Testing Specialist, "BKRMAN"
Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: Zog] #175548 03/04/08 07:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,213
S
SteveFehr Offline
Member
Not that 90% of the people out there working 120V energized circuits hot are using anything more than dry hands, but we at least all recognize it's wrong, I hope!

Re: 70E Where stickers (Not 110.16) not 110.16 sticker [Re: Zog] #175956 03/15/08 07:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
Y
Yoopersup Offline OP
Member
But if there is NO Arc Flash Hazard and thats has been conferned buy a Hazard study , shouldn't there Then be a Sticker saying. ARC FLASH HAZARD ZERO. otherwise hows a guy to know right. Belive me its coming.

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