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Joined: Oct 2000
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Scott35 Online Happy OP
Broom Pusher and
Subject: Design / Install discussions

(***NOTE: Please check this thread periodically for links to newly added scenarios)

Links to Threads of currently active scenarios are listed below, and in recent replies.

Currently Active Scenario Threads:


Electrical Planset, Larry Moe and Curley Cold Storage

Thread's "Real Name" is:
"Electrical Planset - Refrigeration Equipment".
Location: Technical Reference Area.

This linked page contains (1) Electrical Plan Sheets, from a past Design-Build Project.
The uploaded Plan Sheets contain the relevant Electrical Data and Information; only the Client Information and other Contacts' Information has been changed - hence the Project Name "Larry, Moe and Curley Cold Storage".

Please review these Documents, and we will begin a Design-Build Project Scenario using this Job for our base example.

If needed, feel free to contact me regarding this Discussion Thread / Contents.

NOTE: I have created a new Discussion Thread for the "LM and C Cold Storage Project", in the Electrical Theory and Applications Area.

Link to the new Thread:

L,M and C Project

-- Scott

06-10-2011 17:39:00 S.E.T.
rev. 06-10-2011 17:53:00 (insert LMC link) S.E.T.


Commercial Installation #1
New Date: 02-09-2008


It is my intention to create active discussion threads, in which any ECN Member may participate by posting suggestions, opinions, concerns or "What-If" scenarios.

These threads would be targeted towards various Electrical installations, involving as many parameters possible.

The goal here is to bring in as many various opinions and techniques possible, and discuss them in detail to reach a final design conclusion.

Anyone may join in the discussion, as I hope to cover all related areas of a given scenario.
Through these discussions, many People will learn new things - either directly involved in discussions, or simply viewing the progress of the threads.

Lastly, I will create scenarios for discussion, which over time gradually become either more complex in scope, or more detailed in requirements.

To bring more attention to these discussions, I will post linked messages in the following areas:
* General Discussion,
* Estimating and Contracting,
* Voice, Data and Video,
* NEC Discussions,
* Building Codes for Electricians


(***QUALIFIER STATEMENT: The scenario projects will mostly be ones considered as "Dream Jobs", due to the fact that the customer is an "Ideal" one!
We may alter this to some degree in future project scenarios, but for the beginning, let's make things extremely nice and easy!)

The referenced discussion threads will be of the following "default" criteria:

1: The scenario project is either to be:
* Installation-Only,
* Design/Build,
* Customer asks you for design ideas (and pays you for the consultation time).

2: The Customer is a "Quality Contact" - they:
* Pay on time,
* Want quality work and are willing to pay _REASONABLE_ prices,
* Not fixated on "Up Front Costs Only"- they plan for the future and look at all possibilities,
* Give you ALL the information you need,
* Want to hear suggestions,
* DEFINITELY will give you more work in the near future (in the next 3 to 6 Months).

3: The Customer may want Competitive Bidding (at least 3 bids from 3 different Electrical Contractors) for some projects
*** Although the Customer wants 3 Bids, they do not "Jump On" the most lowest price, especially if that price is greatly lower than the others.

4: You have done work for the Customer many times in the past, and have always had good results.

5: The Proposal requested by the Customer addresses the "Work To Be Done" with appropriate qualifiers, has detailed list of exclusions, and might include "options".

6: The working environment is nice: the facilities are kept clean, the customer's staff is easy to work around, and you only have to attend minimal meetings - where you
actually get your questions answered + there is progress after the meeting ends.

7: The customer has no intentions of being involved with the purchase of Materials - other than Vendor Supplied items, or existing to be relocated/reused items.

8: The customer's P.M.s actually keep up with everyone, and are actually concerned with the entire project going as smoothly as possible.

9: RFIs get answered in 2-3 days (instead of 2-3 weeks or months!)

10: Value Engineering -if applied, occurred prior to the Bid Set being issued (where applicable), and what you are bidding from + installing from is the way it is going to be (no unexpected drastic changes after work begins).

11: Any changes are minor, and you have time to submit change orders before doing the changes (and the C/Os get signed + P.O. number issued by the customer within 2 days).

12: The customer understands issues such as:
* Lead time for Lighting Fixtures,
* Plan Check submissions,
* Trade coordination,
* Permits are REALLY necessary,
* Possible unforeseen code issues may turn up,
* Inspections must be done when installations are completed,
* Loss of power may occur at any time - either planned outages or accidentally,
* Live work is a last option.


The target goals on each of these scenario discussions is to cover as much detail of the following areas of a given project:

A: The preliminary stages - such as Electrical Design and Engineering - from simple suggestions, to performed Design / Engineering work,

B: The Building Department preliminary stages - plan check,

C: Production and distribution of compiled drawings,

D: Creating and submitting a Proposal to the customer (Bidding the job),

E: Finding out about the proposed job - invitations to bid, job board searches, word of mouth, contacted by customer, etc.,

F: Contracts, permits and licenses,

G: Taking possession of the job, and coordinating with various contacts,

H: Bringing on your Field Crews, covering job scope and other points with lead persons, how to do the installations (best ways, code compliance, per customer requirements, etc.),

I: Stocking the project with materials, storage containers, tools and etc.,

J: Billing,

K: Project status updates / meetings/ etc.,

L: Inspections' progress,

M: Change Orders / Field Work Orders - vs- contract items,

N: Final Commissioning and close out items, "Punch Lists", Start-Ups and etc.,

O: Final payments and release items, "As-Builts", etc.,

P: Project completion status for your company (materials returned, returning rentals, files and records closed, etc.).


I think these discussions will be of great benefit to us all, so please post any comments you may have to the threads, or even as a reply to this message.

Let's get the ball rolling with the first scenario project in the list: Commercial Installation #1 (dated February 9th, 2008)

Come on in and say anything you want to - even toss in some jokes!

Thank you all in advance.


Last edited by Scott35; 06/10/11 10:54 PM. Reason: added LMC thread link

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
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Scott35 Online Happy OP
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First Discussion thread:

Commercial Installation #1
New Date: 02-09-2008

Please check it out, and make a contribution.

Thanks in advance.


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,337
Well I will bite. I always wanted to work in fantasyland. It sounds interesting. What about local ordinances and different adapted codes. Location cost factors would be an issue. Up here, material cost is around 50% higher of the national average. With rising fuel costs, it will most certainly go up. Labor costs are 36%. These higher averages means someone out there is running below averages which equates to more the just a few dollars different in the price. Just a couple thoughts.

"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
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Scott35 Online Happy OP
Broom Pusher and
Thanks for participating!

Fantasyland is a nice place to work - and one would certainly love to live there!

I chose the Project's location in Fantasyland - and the Heavenly Customer, so the discussions may be more widely accepted + easier to understand by all viewers and posters.

Having said this, let's address the items you stated:


What about local ordinances and different adapted codes

Excellent item to post!

Being that I am in California, _MOST_ of the time, the Electrical Codes will be relevant to the CEC (California Electrical Code) - AKA Title 24, Part 3.
The "Model Code" for the CEC is the NEC.
We are currently on the 2007 CEC, Modeled from the 2005 NEC.

In Southern California, there are some local amendments, along with "listed preferences" - such as:
* Gray for 277V Grounded Neutral Conductors,
* Black, Red, Blue for 208Y/120V 3 Phase 4 Wire,
* Brown, Orange, Yellow for 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire,
* No Aluminum for sizes #2 and smaller,
* No NM Cable in Commercial installations,
* No Aluminum Grounding Electrode Conductors or Equipment Grounding Conductors.

City of LA has additional requirements.

I would like to toss around a few examples with people, and derive a fixed set of "Local Codes" to apply on our design scenarios.

My suggestions are to begin with the basics, as found in the 2005 NEC (I will include this to the first discussion thread tonight).


Location cost factors would be an issue

Since our scenario project is located in Fantasyland, we will figure the project is somewhere on the Equator, yet still in USA.
There will be no snow, rain, wind, frost or extreme heat; and it is always the Vernal or Autumnal Equinox (12 hours daylight, 12 hours night).

Crews will commute no more than 15 miles one way, to get to the project.


material cost is around 50% higher of the national average. With rising fuel costs, it will most certainly go up. Labor costs are 36%.

If possible, we could arrive at a National average - as determined by a consensus, or by NECA, and adjust it according to certain locations - such as yours.


These higher averages means someone out there is running below averages which equates to more the just a few dollars different in the price.

These are exactly the things I want to discuss, as this will help shed light on the vast differences experienced across the Country.

One important note:
I plan to run takeoffs of an agreed upon (to be proposed) installation quote, through the estimating application at work, as to arrive at a given price, estimated hours, and material listing.

Would be doing that for each scenario discussion.

Prior to compiling the takeoff, everyone may contribute as to what will be included, used, paid, and such.

I would also like to draw up a few rough E sheets, and maybe some proposal documents, and add these to the thread.

Thanks for the message - hope to see you in the discussions!


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,443
Likes: 3
This is so much of a damned good thing to let die.
Get in here folks!

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 165
Mike: I though it was a potentially good concept, but it just doesn't seem to be pulling much interest. Wasn't it Yogi Berra that said, "If people don't want to come, you can't stop them." smile

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Scott35 Online Happy OP
Broom Pusher and
Since there was no interest, I really forgot about the whole thing!!!

Suggestions to begin with a much simpler scenario project were made, and I agree.

I will create a simpler starter project and post the details to a new thread ASAP.

Thanks to Mike (Trumpy) and "Retired_Helper" for bumping this thread back to life.


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,723
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Scott35 Online Happy OP
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06-10-2011 17:39:00

Added LM&C Topic at top of Posting List.


-- Scott

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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