ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Monumental chandelier revisited

Steve: They sure do, and it is especially surprising when most of the 285+ are needed given the room's vast scale which can only be properly understood in person. The ceilings are also very high. The house (usually described as a castle or a chateau) was built to appear smaller than it really is.

Mike: I have accounted for this as it would be the only way *any* "regular" dimmer can be utilized for these large fixtures.

A dimmer cabinet is appealing and certainly *would* be the best solution to this problem. I just called to ask if I could get a photo of the subpanel and some simple measurements but no one picked up. I don't think the subpanel enclosure has the clearance required of most dimmer cabinets. Most literature I have read seems to indicate that most equipment needs 6 inches on each side and about a foot above and below and this pilaster applied to this pier is only so wide...

I saw a cabinet that looked good (I can't recall the manufacturer at the moment) with eight 20A dimmer modules with breakers but it required an 80A 240V feed. 160A of juice isn't needed for the room so the feed for it doesn't exist. Can such cabinets safely be fed from a lower capacity feed, especially given that there was no main breaker so no over- "fusing"? Also, are the associated issues with dimmers and share neutrals compounded with cabinets/racks? Are they usually forbidden? None of the literature I have seen so far for various cabinets has really said anything about it, save for some of the larger application Lutron stuff (32 dimmers, etc, not needed).

Are the lights on their own subpanel, or are they mixed with other circuits? The 2408CD does require 6" on both sides and 12" on top, but it's only 17.5" x 20".

Whatever you decide, the production guys will be very happy with you if you provide a DMX-controllable system.

I am going to call tomorrow and ask, as well as ask if I can have a picture sent to me with the column open on the panel exposed. I believe there are some receptacles on the subpanel and then the two chandeliers in the solarium/conservatory which runs lengthwise with the banquet hall and is separated from it by the piers with open arches. These two area total an area about 5,000 square feet in size. There is also a receptionist's desk in the conservatory where guests enter. That may be on the subpanel, maybe not. It is concentrated in the banquet hall though and was put in at least primarily to feed the lights.

If push comes to shove (I'd really like to avoid it as it would require very, very difficult fishing for some new switch legs), I could possibly pull a feeder from the electrical room on the south of the building. Several feeders for various subpanels travel east from it along the walls of a servants' tunnel and then up into the principle wing of the building.

Also, I am certain that the hollow structure that the columns are on is not even close to 29.5" wide, probably more like 24".

It was the It was the Leviton 2408CD that I was thinking of when I posted that.

The only reason I asked about the subpanel, was to see if you could simply replace the subpanel with a dimmer panel. I don't suppose the other circuits could be rearranged into a smaller panel that would accommodate the dimmer panel as well?

According to the 2408CD calls for 80A 120/240 or 110/208Y 3-wire W/G service. As far as clearances go, I would assume they're mostly for cooling as there are fins mounted on the side of the box. If you're willing to go there, does the column have a draft running through it? (thinking old building) Depending on your inspector/local requirements, you might be able to get away by installing a small fan on the fins, or calling the natural convection within the column sufficient cooling.

You might fire off an email to Leviton, asking about the actual service requirements, and whether the spacing is for UL listing or just in-house warranty.

Hello all;

I was just now able to contact my friend and spoke with her about the state of things in the banqueting room. We discussed the needs of visiting DJs, sound and light techs, production managers, etc, and determined that it would be worthwhile to eventually re-route some of the wiring an area behind the banqueting hall and out of view.

Also, there are possibly three or four more banquet lamps (15 lights each) available for use out of ten total lamps which were purchased initially (a pair was sold). The globe on one may have been broken and all need to have some missing crystals replaced and they *might* be put out in the room as well.

Relocation of the controls may allow for a new feed to come in from the electrical room to support the lighting in this room while the existing subpanel could be utilized to provide electrical to meet the current demands of sound and production equipment.

Some questions:

- Does DMX require inlets/outlets and what sort of conductors are we talking about here (Cat6 maybe? This will have to be tackled later of course, I will be doing some reading up as the time comes to select equipment)

- Should any other communications systems be considered in addition to DMX?

- What, in your opinion, is the best balance of cost and performance in terms of a dimmer cabinet?

- What control points should be considered bearing in mind the following desired controls: All up, all off (fade to off), individual dimming (of course) and *possibly* remote control location. Most likely at least two control points would be installed, possibly more. A simple interface is desired, possibly something as manual as possible that avoids going through digital menus, although that really shouldn't be much of a problem.

I heard more about some of the other projects going on and this itself is not a primary one but it is one of great interest and would be valued either way. The chandelier itself *will* be restored though in the very near future. There are a few other primary projects going on right now. A staggering bid was received for the restoration of the central open-air courtyard's timbers and there is work ahead for the enormous slate roof, among other things.

DMX was originally specified to use special cables that were originally designed for RS-422 links. A few years ago, the umbrella organization for theatrical lighting (I don't recall the name) did some extensive research using time-domain reflectometers and the like, and found that plain-vanilla Cat5 cable works better than the special cable that is specified for DMX. They have since established a standard using Cat5 cable.

This research was done before the advent of Cat5e and Cat6 cable. The expectation is that Cat5e and Cat6 should work equally as well, but that hasn't been tested. Given that Cat5e meets all the specs of Cat5, I would expect that there would be no problem using Cat5e.

There is a standard around somewhere (I can't find my copy right now) that maps the 5 pins and shell of the DMX connector (which BTW is a 5-pin XLR) to the pairs of a Cat5 cable.

USITT (US Institute for Theatre Technology) developed the standard, and ESTA (Entertainment Services and Technology Association) made revisions to get DMX adopted as an ANSI standard.

Cat5 is probably ok for permanent installations, but I wouldn't use it for any kind of temporary or high-traffic hookup, since it's pretty fragile compared to the other types of cabling available. The standard calls for 5-pin XLR jacks for control hookup, although the dimmer panel itself and any architectural control stations you install should be hard-wired. While 5-conductor is the standard, you can use 3 or 4-conductor wire if there's an existing run.

When you're installing wall jacks for DMX, you will want a male 5-pin XLR jack in locations where a control source (lighting console) will be used, and a female where DMX-controlled lights or other accesories will be installed. Having DMX "out" (female) jacks on lighting positions is always handy. Everything is typically dasiy-chained in temporary installation, but you can wire everything together for a permanent installation. I doubt that you will need more than one "universe" (run) of DMX, as it will handle up to 512 channels--either individual dimmers, or attributes on moving lights. In most situations, one universe is fine--although often a second universe is run solely for intelligent lighting and added dimming capacity, separate from the in-house dimming panel.

In terms of architectural controls, there are a number of panels available; some that are just simply "on" and "off", some with preset buttons for various setups, touchscreens, individual sliders for each "channel", etc. The types of panels that are available will depend on the dimming panel you get; most of the architectural control stations run on proprietary protocols that only run with the manufacturer's own dimming systems, and not on the DMX standard.

Eventually, most lighting control will probably be done over Ethernet, but the standard for such is still a ways off. Right now, every manufacturer has their own protocol that are incompatable with each other, so DMX is probably still the best choice for a small installation. Most Ethernet protocols do have DMX nodes for use with DMX equipment, but the cost of an Ethernet system really isn't necessary for a smaller space like yours.

From what I've heard, the NSI (now Leviton) 2408CD is a pretty good panel. EDI, Strand and ETC also offer good options. However, it sounds like you might be limited by panel size more than features.

As far as functions needed, you will need emergency house lights on full. How are you handling emergency lighting? What about a ghost light for night security walk throughs? How about cleaner's lights?

Larry C

SP: thank you, I will be keeping this in mind.

Noderaser: There is no production/event lighting equipment kept at the mansion itself. All of that is brought in by whichever DJ, production manager, etc has been hired to run an event. Any and all installations would be permanent and would be composed of male and female jacks.

Since the room has open arches along the south wall and very heavy and large furniture (sideboards and banquet pieces) between the columns of the north wall, I am thinking to suggest or plan for jacks at the bases of the columns (seen in the graphic in the initial post) as the pilasters are hollow. It would probably be best to also to add at least a receptacle at every column, on the side and closer to the floor, as the only receptacles present are concentrated on the west and east walls and a single receptacle near the sub panel.

Since my friend and I have discussed the possibility of a new location for the lighting controls, the 2408-CD is an enticing choice. The most likely location for the dimmer pack is also closer to an uninterrupted succession of utility type areas which will make running a dedicated feed through the hundred foot long service tunnel from the electrical room and up to the other side of the mansion rather easy.

Larry: I believe the 2408-CD has an emergency house lights up feature. I will investigate it further. There is an emergency lighting system in the banquet hall in the event of a power failure but of course nothing to bring the lights up if there is an emergency but no loss of power to the room.

The large central chandelier has a single bulb in it which can somehow stay lit independently of all of the other bulbs, yet it also can be turned off with all of the other lights. I still haven't been able to figure that one out. Of course, it has a very eery and spooky effect and doesn't give out enough light.

I was thinking of putting a few sockets in the central chandelier with CFLs on a separate switch leg or a socket with a CFL inside each of the corner chandeliers as a ghost light, but I don't know if this is feasible as the it would involve running lines to fixture from both a dimmer pack and also from another location. I was also thinking of a programmed night scene for the outer lights of the central chandelier or for the corner chandeliers (but who wants to keep 48 bulbs lit through the night as opposed to nine?).

What do you think?