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iwire #162617 04/22/07 01:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,930
Likes: 34
G
Member
If that was really a problem the 250' of extension cord I had strung out yesterday should have tripped the TWO GFCIs (in series) that were feeding it. We were running a table saw, several drills, an impact wrench and a skill saw with no problem at all. This is very common in construction sites all over the country where they run very long cords from T poles or the garage across the street. Why isn't this "capacitance" and the "motor myth" shutting down construction sites?
I put this in the same class as those who say refrigerators and washing machines are supposed to trip GFCIs. GFCIs trip on ground faults.
I am planning on doiong some pressure cleaning next week and we will be using my 50 foot 30a 240v SO extension cord (5HP motor). I will put a clamp on it and see what the ground current is at the source. If 100' of SO cord is supposed to trip a GFCI I should see 2-3ma of ground current from 50 feet (plus the 35 foot SJOW cord on the cleaner).

BTW your example of a "good" meter only means that it has many megohms of impedance so microamps will excite it.

OK folks
Want to get your bets down?
50' of 6ga SO cord
35' of 10ga SJOW cord
35' of 10ga Romex
5HP motor load on the end
Will I measure on the green wire at the panel?
(A) much less than a milliamp
(B) about 1ma
(C) 2-3ma
(D) 4-5ma
(E) Greater than 5


Greg Fretwell
gfretwell #162618 04/22/07 01:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,930
Likes: 34
G
Member
I read your article. This is what it said about capacitance ... unless I missed something

Quote
If you consider that the wire is installed in metallic conduit (a code requirement) which is grounded, then you can understand that a capacitance exists between the conductors and the conduit. The longer the conduit and circuit length, the larger the capacitance.


The OP is talking about SO cord in plastic pipe.


Greg Fretwell
gfretwell #162620 04/22/07 02:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Greg I am a great supporter of GFCIs

I think we should use them more often than required and I do just that, I install GFCIs at the point of use many times even when not required. Like you I feel an appliance that trips a GFCI has an issue that needs to be fixed.

That said I find it discouraging that you refuse to consider a real issue that can cause problems no matter what may have worked fine at your own home.

Some reading that is more on target.

From EC&M


Tony Locker, BSEE, MSEE
Quote
There is always a very small capacitive current flowing from an energized 120 Vac conductor to ground (by ground I mean the equipment bonding system consisting of the chassis, the bonding conductors, etc.). The capacitance to ground is distributed all along the conductor. That's why manufacturers of GFCI circuit breakers recommend the circuit length be limited to a maximum one-way distance of 250 ft., to avoid nuisance tripping. That's for 60 Hz circuits. As frequency goes up, capacitive impedance drops. At high frequencies (4-12 kHz typical of inverters), the capacitive impedance is low, so more capacitive current will couple to the bonding system and return to the source. This can nuisance trip a GFCI, which needs only 4-6 mA.


From a University of Idaho pdf.

Quote
• The issue:
– In any circuit, there is distributed capacitance
between the line or phase conductors, the
grounding conductor, and the surrounding
conductive materials
– This capacitance will result in a small
“leakage current”
– The leakage current may “pre-load” the GFCI
circuit breaker, reducing the normal trip level


From Square Ds GFCI breaker installation pdf

Quote
• Do not connect circuit breaker to
more than 250 ft. (76 m) of load
conductor for the total one-way
run.


I am in no way saying it will always happen, what I am saying is it can happen and in my own opinion a good design will place the GFCI as close to the point of use as possible to prevent this 'pre-loading' of the ground fault detecting circuitry.

A GFCI is worthless if it does start nuisance tripping and is removed by the customer.

Originally Posted by gfretwell
I read your article. This is what it said about capacitance ... unless I missed something

Quote
If you consider that the wire is installed in metallic conduit (a code requirement) which is grounded, then you can understand that a capacitance exists between the conductors and the conduit. The longer the conduit and circuit length, the larger the capacitance.


The OP is talking about SO cord in plastic pipe.


In steel conduit is a worst case, the simple fact a copper EGC runs in parallel with the circuit conductors is also a problem although of lesser significance than if they where run in steel conduit.




Last edited by iwire; 04/22/07 03:58 PM. Reason: Spelling

Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
iwire #162634 04/22/07 07:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,930
Likes: 34
G
Member
One thing does bother me about all this capacitive coupling. Wouldn't BOTH current carrying conductors couple to ground a similar amount and if so the net current differential across the CT in the GFCI would be close to zero? In fact the current in the ground wire would null too.

I just can't imagine this is a real world problem when I see those T poles with 2 or 3 cube taps in them and hundreds of feet of extension cord plugged in. Certainly they trip now and then but I think that is more a function of the lousy cords and defective tools.


Greg Fretwell
gfretwell #162637 04/22/07 08:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
F
Member
Originally Posted by gfretwell
One thing does bother me about all this capacitive coupling. Wouldn't BOTH current carrying conductors couple to ground a similar amount and if so the net current differential across the CT in the GFCI would be close to zero? In fact the current in the ground wire would null too.

I just can't imagine this is a real world problem when I see those T poles with 2 or 3 cube taps in them and hundreds of feet of extension cord plugged in. Certainly they trip now and then but I think that is more a function of the lousy cords and defective tools.



True Greg,, but what it can compound it some of the tools used the electronic device to regualation the speed of the tool sometime it can read very funny current wave fourm some case it can cause the GFCI to trip much more eaiser when the sine wave is gone like chopped sqaure wave or moddifed sine wave it can cause the GFCI's CT to be reading at wrong time can cause to trip

so that one thought it can happend

Merci , Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)

gfretwell #162670 04/23/07 11:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 65
B
Member
Originally Posted by gfretwell
One thing does bother me about all this capacitive coupling. Wouldn't BOTH current carrying conductors couple to ground a similar amount and if so the net current differential across the CT in the GFCI would be close to zero? In fact the current in the ground wire would null too.

The current will be proportional to the voltage differential. For a 120V circuit, one conductor is at 120V while the other is at 0V with respect to ground. There will be current due to capacitive coupling from the hot conductor, but not from the grounded conductor, as it is at nearly the same voltage as the grounding conductor.

For a 240V circuit, the capacitive coupling would likely be balanced between the two current carrying conductors, as they are both at 120V.

BrianP #162978 04/28/07 12:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,930
Likes: 34
G
Member
Quote
OK folks
Want to get your bets down?
50' of 6ga SO cord
35' of 10ga SJOW cord
35' of 10ga Romex
5HP motor load on the end
Will I measure on the green wire at the panel?
(A) much less than a milliamp
(B) about 1ma
(C) 2-3ma
(D) 4-5ma
(E) Greater than 5


The winner would be the one who picked 2-3ma.
I didn't see anything on my UEI clamp so I ended up using a current probe on my Fluke 8060A


Greg Fretwell
gfretwell #162989 04/28/07 05:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 52
T
Member
Quote
If 100' of SO cord is supposed to trip a GFCI I should see 2-3ma of ground current from 50 feet (plus the 35 foot SJOW cord on the cleaner).


Quote
Quote:
OK folks
Want to get your bets down?
50' of 6ga SO cord
35' of 10ga SJOW cord
35' of 10ga Romex
5HP motor load on the end
Will I measure on the green wire at the panel?
(A) much less than a milliamp
(B) about 1ma
(C) 2-3ma
(D) 4-5ma
(E) Greater than 5



The winner would be the one who picked 2-3ma.


You took the long way but I'm glad you're in agreement. GFI would have been bad for my application.

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