ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
Vibrator Supplies??
by gfretwell - 10/19/19 08:33 PM
FPE in Germany
by NORCAL - 10/16/19 08:24 AM
Help with aging employee advice.
by Bill Addiss - 10/15/19 10:58 PM
Fuse blower plug?
by gfretwell - 10/13/19 03:23 PM
Power factor and transformer efficiency
by TeslaEdison - 10/13/19 04:05 AM
New in the Gallery:
FPE Breaker panel in germany
What is this for?
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (donles), 13 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: outside Cat 5 #160343 10/30/05 09:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 272
A
A-Line Offline
Member
Hal,
I don't do that much Voice/Data work so for me the cost difference doesn't amount to much. I find it easier to just stock one type of cable that I can use for both voice and data. Cat5 cable is good for both and I only have to worry about carrying one type on my service truck. I used to carry both on my truck and used Cat3 for voice and Cat5 for computer networks but decided it was easier to stock just one. Saves space.
Does it really bother you that much when someone uses Cat5 for voice. [Linked Image]

Study Guides for VDV / Structured Cabling Installers

Voice, Data, Video, (VDV) Fiber Optics, Communications, Low Voltage,
Fire Alarm, Electronic Security Systems Installations & Related

NTC Low Voltage Training & NICET Exam Study Guides
Low Voltage Training & NICET Exam Study Guides

Re: outside Cat 5 #160344 10/30/05 10:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 135
M
mkoloj Offline
Member
No offense Hal but what is the big deal with using Cat 5 for voice? [Linked Image]
As far as I have seen lately it is the norm to run cat 5 for voice. I have even seen some people using, dare I say it ? cat 6. [Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by mkoloj (edited 10-30-2005).]

Re: outside Cat 5 #160345 10/30/05 10:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 74
C
CRM Offline
Member
QUOTE Now what if the Cat 5 is outside just long enough to get to the demarc?
DEMARC? Arrrff I thought this was for a network. Wish you guys would stop with the CAT 5 crap and just say what the heck you are doing. It's a friggin telephone POTS line.

As to your question, NO you don't have to protect it. Just staple it and make it look neat.

Geesh!

-Hal
QUOTE

Get off your high horse, HAL. Cat 5 cable has become the standard for voice and data cable. I think you owe this forum an apology for your bad attitude.

Re: outside Cat 5 #160346 10/30/05 11:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 886
H
hbiss Offline
Member
Does it really bother you that much when someone uses Cat5 for voice.

Yeah it does. It's a PITA to work with. It doesn't bother me if it's only a few runs but if you do a lot of voice like I do you would say the same thing.

Try terminating 100 voice jacks then punch the other ends down on 66 blocks and tell me that untwisting those tight twists isn't going to give you carpal tunnel some day.

I haven't run into it yet but it's just a matter of time until somebody wires a building for voice with the CAT6 that has the bonded and twisted pairs. Going to have to charge more or kill somebody, maybe both.

Cat 5 cable has become the standard for voice and data cable. I think you owe this forum an apology for your bad attitude.

Standard with who? Electrical contractors, computer geeks and DIY's I guess because any time I see CAT5 all over the place that's who did it. At least as an EC you should know better, those others have an excuse.

To me it's like wiring an entire house with #10. If I saw that I would think whoever did it didn't know that there are other more suitable materials available or didn't care.

I can buy the excuse that you only keep CAT5 on the truck if you don't get into this heavily but otherwise use the right cables.

-Hal

Re: outside Cat 5 #160347 10/31/05 04:15 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
"Still want to know what are you guys going to do in a few years when the norm for data is fiber."

Bet that won't fly stapled to the side of the house...

Hal, I trust and respect your opinions truthfully, and I know this topic just eats at you... But they ask for, and pay for it, they get it. Many just for the reason that they know they can re-purpose it as the only real reason. True, the tighter twist in cat5 does make for a longer install, but I have all but stopped using 66 blocks anyway, and stick to 110 intermediates anyway. (Much easier) If its not specified in a larger job as 5, I'll run 3, but I don't keep any on the truck anymore.

Side note, lately I keep getting customers saying, "Dont worry about all the phones and data, it will all be wire-less." I look at the metal studs and concrete cielings and chuckle, as I then look at the giant radio tower outside the window. (Sure it will!)


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: outside Cat 5 #160348 10/31/05 10:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 272
A
A-Line Offline
Member
Hal,

Maybe your situation is different but when I punch down the cables I don't untwist the pairs much, try to avoid untwisting more than a half inch of wire. It would seem to me that there isn't much untwisting to do. Is there a reason to have to untwist the pairs more than this on a regular basis?
If I run a cat5 cable to a phone location and the customer decides to put a computer there instead and wants to network it with the other computers it would seem to me that it was practical to have run the cat5. I can just swap out the 6pin jack with a 8pin and reroute the cable on the other end to the hub. Like I said before I don't do alot of this type of work so I could be wrong in my thinking. I've beenn getting most of my information from this website. http://www.jimhayes.com/uncleted/index.html
What do you think of this website?
As far as carpel tunnel goes I had surgery for that last June. Mostly from twisting all those wirenuts on I think.


[This message has been edited by A-Line (edited 10-31-2005).]

Re: outside Cat 5 #160349 10/31/05 01:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 886
H
hbiss Offline
Member
But they ask for, and pay for it, they get it.

And that's fine. The problem I have is when the installation has not been dictated many guys out of ignorance will do everything in CAT5 because that's all they know.

Voice wiring has been around way longer than CAT5, networks and computers. The same wiring used for a network can be used for voice but so can a barbed wire fence. If you don't need it why go through the extra time and effort to terminate it and spend extra money for the material?

Maybe your situation is different but when I punch down the cables I don't untwist the pairs much, try to avoid untwisting more than a half inch of wire. It would seem to me that there isn't much untwisting to do. Is there a reason to have to untwist the pairs more than this on a regular basis?

Most of our installations use 66 blocks. You need at least a couple of inches of untwisted pair to be able to hold on to the wire with your fingers so you can pull it in the slot then hook it in the clip from the top down. No problem with CAT 3. When you have all 25 pair in place you cut them all down.

If you are using 66 blocks it sounds like you are doing it the "CAT5" way. This is what you would need to do if you were using CAT5 for data and would need to maintain the CAT5 rating of the block.

Instead of untwising the pairs you pull both through a slot between two clips. You untwist enough so that you can hook one wire in the clip above going up and the other wire in the clip below going down. If you don't untwist enough to be able to do this with your fingers you will have to use your needlenose and you risk damaging the insulation if you grab the conductor before the point where it will be on the clip. Now, the big problem with this method is when you cut it down you have to remember to flip your tool over for every other clip. To say the least it's slow going and more meticulous. Not something I would want to do unless I had to.

As for Uncle Jim's site, about the only good illustration of a voice crossconnect with CAT3 cables is the picture entitled "Here's a Real World Installation". Notice the use of 89 brackets with the 66M blocks.

All of his stuff looks awful and is not something that I would try to emulate.

-Hal

Re: outside Cat 5 #160350 10/31/05 01:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,409
G
gfretwell Online Content
Member
66 blocks are not Cat 5 rated so it really doesn't matter much about the twist.


Greg Fretwell
Re: outside Cat 5 #160351 10/31/05 05:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 886
H
hbiss Offline
Member
To the contrary there are CAT5 rated 66 blocks though I don't think any are rated CAT5e or higher. The termination method I described is what is required to maintain the CAT 5 rating.

-Hal

Re: outside Cat 5 #160352 10/31/05 08:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 99
T
Tripp Offline OP
Member
Hal, for a response to your less-than-helpful tirade on this forum and the other, PLEASE GO TO .....er...www.sundance-communications.com/forum.

And...why you blamin' me because you ASSumed I was talking about something I was not? Ask for clarification or more info next time.

And...try a little tenderness (sorry, that song just came over the radio and I couldn't resist.)

Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
TOOL_5150
TOOL_5150
Bay Area
Posts: 61
Joined: August 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
sparky 10
Popular Topics(Views)
259,645 Are you busy
195,027 Re: Forum
184,441 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3