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#155928 02/23/05 05:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 80
Bert66 Offline OP
HELP!!! I'm bidding a job for a warehouse/machineshop. The shop has several welding machines, plasma cutters, o/h cranes, etc. Pretty much your basic shop equipment. The owner wants to buy all the material which is fine as it will not tie up any of my $$$. So how should I go about bidding this as a T&M job. I personnaly have never bid a T&M job.

Any advice would be a huge help.

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#155929 02/23/05 05:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 886
The owner wants to buy all the material...

Danger, danger Will Robinson!


#155930 02/23/05 06:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 28
The way I see it is T & M is just that time and material cut and dry but you may want to be paid as the job goes.

#155931 02/23/05 06:40 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
It's always good to clarify if you are working for the bid price, or on an hourly basis regardless of the end cost. You know going in that you'll be held to the bid price if your hours go higher. Be sure to list all the work with the bid so it's clear that any extras are extra.

This is usually the way a "control freak" wants to do a job...warning...WARNING!


#155932 02/23/05 07:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 687
It would not be T & M if the owner provided materials. More like T & BS. You think you are going to be provided with the right material? Most likely the cheapest quality. Are you going to wait while he gets the right thing? Will you provide your own misc. material instead of waiting for the owner? I would figure the time to do the job and hike up your rate 1.5 or 2 times. Just give him a total price. Then walk away.


#155933 02/23/05 08:26 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
I really like this person and job...-20%
I like this person and job...-10%
Normal...No add or deduct
This seems a little off...+10%
This feels wrong...+20%
There HAS to be a better job than this...+30%
Time, materials provided with bid...+++???


#155934 02/23/05 08:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 34
Give him a flat hourly rate Example: $65.00 per hour per man. all you furnish is manpower and hand tools. You furnish any material - mark it up 200%. Keep a detail summary of work description each day and have them sign it approving time and work performed.
Provide them with this and let them mull it over. Be sure to tell them if you are waiting on material to be delivered by them - it's still $65.00 per man per hour because you can't do anything until material is on site.

Personnally, I wouldn't follow up on this after I submitted this type of proposal. Sounds like you could be opening a big can of worms here.

John C. Harvey
IndCom Electrical Estimates
#155935 02/23/05 08:39 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
I'll let you gain from my pain...

Same type of job, but worse...the owner was going to help and "cut my time in half"...his help would best be stated as saving me no time at all, probably adding time with all the curiousity questions and cheap recessed lighting, and no-show. Basically my time was normal, or more. I worked on a Holiday to meet his schedule demands. I worked overtime on that Holiday, and he doubled the amount of outlets, along with some baseboard heat and cabinet lighting.

The bill ended up 4Xplus (double labor (plus his "help" and overtime), double project (plus)). He hit the roof and yelled at me on the phone wondering why it wasn't at the bid price (he didn't ask me to work on a Holiday, he told me all the outlets he wanted in a walk-through...etc.).



#155936 02/23/05 11:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 914
We don't do T&M anymore. Too many customers that don't understand it or want to take advantage. We also don't work with customer supplied materials. As others have stated, these materials will be poor quality or wrong or not there when you need them. We give a firm bid, if we can't determine a firm bid, we pass.

#155937 02/24/05 08:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 615
I wouldn't necessarily run yet. You just have to finish selling the job right. As far as material goes, give him a list of stuff he can supply, basic stuff, pipe wire disconnects etc. and tell him it is impossible to give a complete down to the last fitting list. Then ask if he would rather have material left over or have you supply the little stuff. If he would rather have material left over, put in order like you are stocking the truck. Otherwise you supply all the misc. and let him get the big obvious stuff.

For the time side of it, be very clear that how long it takes is what he gets charged. Resist giving an estimate too, because as others have said he see that number as a "not to exceed" amount. If you do have to give an estimate shoot it way high and when they "what!!?? why so long long?!?!" tell him "well it could be less, lets see what it comes in at" and if they keep pushing for an estimate make clear that this not how T&M works, if he'd like a bid you can put forth the time to sit down and thoroughly figure the job, but then it will be a fixed bid. Then be clear about what is included so you can easily identify extras.

The problem is that most people like this want it both ways. If it goes long they want bid, if it goes short they want T&M, but they will wait until the job is over to make that decision.

But, on the other hand, sometimes they just need a little time and interaction to build up trust and then, because you took the time to work with them and consider (still try to avoid their way, but try to ease them away from it) doing things their way, the next thing you know, you have the run of the show over there. Good luck.

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