ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Increasing demand factors in residential
by gfretwell - 03/28/24 12:43 AM
Portable generator question
by Steve Miller - 03/19/24 08:50 PM
Do we need grounding?
by NORCAL - 03/19/24 05:11 PM
240V only in a home and NEC?
by dsk - 03/19/24 06:33 AM
Cordless Tools: The Obvious Question
by renosteinke - 03/14/24 08:05 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 255 guests, and 16 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#144472 12/02/05 10:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,213
S
Member
I'm doing some work on a 60Hz system on a US installation in Rota, Spain, and wanted to reference the local building and electrical codes. Normally in cases like this, we just do the installation IAW NEC 2005 as if we were stateside, since we're not exactly going to have local building inspectors coming on base, but I'd still like to cover ourselves legally, should something arise. And unfortunately, I don't speak spanish beyond "Dos cerveza, por favor". What relevant codes do Spain use?

We'll be doing mechanical work as well, with crane service, if you happen to know those codes too? Thanks!

#144473 12/02/05 01:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 1
C
C-H Offline
Member
The Spanish codes will probably be ill suited to American 60 Hz equipment. If this is a US military base, embassy or similar, it would in my humble opinion be better to use the NEC and put a note saying that is was done in accordance with the NEC.

If your are working on Spanish property (with Spanish electricans), you will...ummm...have an unique opportunity to learn something radically new. [Linked Image]

The Spanish codes consist of the ELECTROTÉCNICO PARA BAJA TENSIÓN\" and the standard UNE 20460 "Instalaciones eléctricas en edificios".

If the title doesn't make any sense to you, a slight comfort could be that the standard is based on the same document as the British wiring regs. Some introduction to this can be found on the net. Apart from the language, the EU member states have their own variations that are greater than the local variations in the US.

#144474 12/02/05 07:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 153
W
Member
Either you're working on American ground and under US laws, then keep to the code!

or not, then

Hands off, you're neither licensed nor able to combine American material with any European code.

#144475 12/02/05 09:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,213
S
Member
Ah, thanks guys. Maybe I would be better off just not listing it at all, my predecessors never bothered to [Linked Image] Nor were the spanish codes listed in the contract when we did another job at this same location last year. Maybe I'll just reference them vice fully invoking them, at least it will be listed. To be honest I'm not sure if this building is US leasing Spanish federal land or considered US sovereign territory, but nobody ever bothers us. I thought I might have a chance to make an improvement to the contract but now that it's come to it, I'm very hesitant to invoke a code I can't even read aside from a poor babelfish translation...

I won't be the man with my hands in the switchboard on this, but I'm ultimately the engineer at the top of the pyramid and responsible for it all. I've got some good technicians that keep me straight, should the contractor try to pull stuff, and they always do. We like to ensure we've got our bases covered in the contract up-front so we can point out everything they did wrong. I know full well I'll have to pay to fix it (one way or another), but pointing fingers when something goes wrong makes you feel better, right??

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 12-02-2005).]

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 12-02-2005).]

#144476 12/03/05 03:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 153
W
Member
Just curious:

Where do you get the 60 Hz from. Is it an independant grid?
This issue has nothing to do with the code topic being rather a philosophical issue.

#144477 12/03/05 05:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,443
Likes: 3
Member
Steve,
All I can say mate is best of luck and keep us posted on what is going on there.
Wolfgang,
You don't need a whole grid to have a 60Hz system.
A supply system can be as large or as small as you want it to be.
As long as it is independant of any other gear around it, what's the problem?.

#144478 12/03/05 06:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 153
W
Member
@trumpy
Maybe it is just a wrong word. In German I would use "Netz" for everything from 10 receptacles up to the Western European power grid.

As a matter of fact more or less all American bases here in Europe have their own 60 Hz power system, sometimes both parallel. I just do not know whether it is typically done by a separate own generator or by a motor / generator coupling to the local power grid or both or whatever.

#144479 12/03/05 08:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Member
C-H got it nearly right when he said "...ummm.." What he should have said was "Arrrgggghhhh!"

Alan


Wood work but can't!
#144480 12/03/05 12:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
Member
If it's a U.S. base with American equipment on its own 60Hz supply, then I would wire to the NEC and not worry about local codes.

Your installation is practically guaranteed to be far safer than the wiring in a typical Spanish building (note "typical", not "to Spanish code.")

#144481 12/03/05 03:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,253
D
djk Offline
Member
That's a really dodgy area. although, I don't think that Spain was historically that strict.

I wouldn't try it in Northern Europe.. you could find yourself in deep trouble should anything go wrong.

In Ireland you'd immediately leave yourself 100% liable to enormous legal implications if there was a fire/accident/shock related to the installation as it would be completely unapproved to any known irish reg.

Basically you could be sued until you were VERY VERY broke!

We don't have US bases etc.. so there would be no reason to do anything to anything other than the national codes.

Spanish regs are fine, the bad experiences of spanish wiring usually come from cheap and nasty 1950s/60s holiday apartments aimed at low budget tourists !

Any modern / proper spanish installation I've ever seen has been pretty similar to German standards.

Embassies thesedays usually don't bother to try and implement their own country's codes within the embassy building unless they're in a very underdeveloped place or connecting some very specialised equipment from home.

The US embassy in Dublin for example had plenty of BS1363 outlets on the walls and 230V everything.

It would make very little sense to have to request 120V lightbulbs from the Dept of State everytime one blew in Dublin [Linked Image]

Although I could see why a North American embassy might want 60Hz 120V available in Europe for specialised equipment or why a European Embassy in the US or Canada might want 230V 50hz available for the same reasons, but for the vast majority of things it makes more sense to just stick with local codes.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 12-03-2005).]

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5