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#142970 04/19/05 12:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
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pauluk Offline OP
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We haven't had a telephone thread for a while, so here are some pictures of an old G.P.O. type 332 telephone which has just come to me for a cleanup and rewiring to work on a modern jack.

The 332 was the standard G.P.O. desk phone from the 1930s right up until the modern plastic-cased 700 series displaced it in the 1950s. Black was the most common color, as seen here, but ivory, red, and green versions were also made.

Some had a pull-out plastic tray fitted in the base, which was used to contain the dialing instructions and local routing codes. This particular unit doesn't have the tray, hence the blanking plate you can see on the front.

The dial on this phone is the type with just figures. Dials fitted to the 332 for use in London and the other director cities, as well as some other areas when STD arrived had letters as well.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 04-19-2005).]

#142971 04/19/05 12:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
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The later 700 phones had everything fixed to the base and the top part was then just a cover (much like the Western Electric 500). These earlier phones, however, just had a cover plate for the base with all the works fixed inside the top part of the casing.

And for all you sharp-eyed viewers, can you spot the one item here which is not original G.P.O. issue?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Like many of the old G.P.O. telephone sets, this phone was made by Standard Telephones in North London (my mother worked there for a while):

[Linked Image]


Electrically, the 332 set predates the use of regulators, so the internal circuitry is quite simple. Here's the schematic from inside the base plate:

[Linked Image]

#142972 04/19/05 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 19
A
Member
In the third photo i see a piece of heat shrink tubing. I think that isn't original :-)

Greets,

Arend


bzzzzt ;-)
#142973 04/20/05 12:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,423
Likes: 3
Member
Paul,
Good pictures!. [Linked Image]
I remember my Grandparents had a phone exactly like this one in thier house.
Telecom NZ used to buy phones from BT if I'm right at all.
Although the numbers on the dial were around the other way (1-0).
Them wires from the dial unit to the base unit look like you could run an iron through them. [Linked Image]
You don't get circuit diagrams like that anymore with gear.
BTW, Paul, what function did the Induction coil serve?.
Arend,
That may be rubber tape that you are looking at there, it's still used on some iron flexes here as cushioning under the cord grip of the appliance.
As I remember Paul, your telephone number was written on a small disc of paper that fitted under a plastic disc in the centre of the dial.
These phones are pretty rare here now, as being made of alabaster (like bake-lite) they often didn't survive being dropped onto hard surfaces.
Could be fun fitting a BT connector to the end of that braided flex. [Linked Image]

#142974 04/20/05 08:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
Member
No, that isn't modern heatshrink on the dial cord. It's the old type of sleeving, hard to describe, but like a braided rubber, and quite original.

The induction coil forms part of the anti-sidetone circuit. It couples audio to the receiver, and also reduces the volume of the callers own voice in the earpiece, which would otherwise be loud compared to the incoming audio from the distant end.

Quote
As I remember Paul, your telephone number was written on a small disc of paper that fitted under a plastic disc in the centre of the dial.

Here you go:
http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/dial_labels.htm


Quote
Could be fun fitting a BT connector to the end of that braided flex.
You think I'm even going to try?! [Linked Image]

I'll be fitting an old 1/4-inch plug and making up an adapter lead to go with it.

But you're very warm....... [Linked Image]

#142975 04/20/05 11:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 48
M
Member
tut-tut Paul, how could you not bind the ends of the new cable you fitted with coloured cotton thread!

M.

#142976 04/20/05 11:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
Member
Not me Marc, this is exactly how it came to me so I haven't done anything to it yet.

But you've got it [Linked Image] -- The line cord is not the original. If you look at the photo of the underside of the chassis, you can see the difference.

The original handset cord (top terminals) has a distinctly brown braid, while the line cord (bottom terminals) has a more purple color. It's actually a length of old-style twin lighting flex, probably 1950s. Not an exact match, but somebody obviously thought it better than modern PVC!

If you look at the schematic, you'll see that the original cord was a 3-wire type, although on a regular single-party line the bell return was just strapped to one side of the line on the wall junction.

Look back at the terminals on the underside of the chassis, and you can see the wire has been extended from the bottom left terminal to the one directly above it to get the bell to work. That's where the third wire would have been connected originally (compare with the "official" straps on the terminals to the right).

#142977 04/21/05 08:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,253
D
djk Offline
Member
Similar bindings were used on old cloth covered power cords here. Found on 1930s/40s irons and other heating appliances!

Could you wire it to an old GPO headphone jack style connector? Then wire that to a modern modular jack ?



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 04-21-2005).]

#142978 04/21/05 05:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
Member
Quote
Found on 1930s/40s irons and other heating appliances!
Ditto here, not that that's surprising.

Quote
Could you wire it to an old GPO headphone jack style connector?
Yes, that's what I meant when I said a 1/4-inch jack. And although the majority of single phones in homes were hardwired back in the days when this set was commonly used, those which were on a portable plan would have used just such a jack.

Personally, I think the old GPO jacks were far superior to the modern modular BT plugs, but of course these days everything is done on the basis of how cheaply it can be made. [Linked Image]

#142979 04/21/05 07:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 145
C
Member
Actually Paul, modifying a 332 to work on modern style phone jacks is quite easy [although technically illegal]. Remove strap 10-11, and hook the bell wire which is usually the blue one these days, to terminal number 11, leaving the line pair right where they are. That way, the capacitor in the phone jack replaces the 2 microfarad cap. I don't know how hot BT are on this anymore, they *used* to insist everything complied to BS something or other, but these days it seems pretty much standard to use north amercian equipment, with my ADSL microfilters, even down to an RJ11 jack on the filter instead of the BT type. I see this as a good thing, we both know the US and Canadian systems are better right? [Linked Image] Speaking of old jacks, the 316 switchboard plugs are *incredibly* well made by modern standards, the things are a pleasure to connect to. Pity nothing uses 1/4 inch connectors anymore.

#142980 04/22/05 09:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,497
T
Member
Even though the number of components is just about the sane the schematics look a lot more complex than those of our W48 phones from the same era.
5 wires to the dial... ours had four, later ones only three. Our rotary dials basically consist of 2 switches. One is open at idle and closes when the dial is turned. The other one is closed in idle an opens while the dial spins back, generating the dial pulses. The correcr technical term for rotary dial was and still is "number switch". The more familiar term is "dial disc".

A few weeks ago I took apart two W48 phones and did loads of measuring to find a fault. I eventually tracked it down to all dial wires being swapped over.
The only common problems with those phones are faulty microphones and handset cords with broken strands. Everything else is inestructible. The cap is only 1 microfarad here IIRC.
The oldest W48 models (mine is from 1949) had a braided cloth handset cord and plastic line cord (three wire for single line phones, th third wire was earth where required, party line phones had a 10 wire cord). Later 50ies models had a round cloth cord for both hand set and line (maybe mine had a cloth line cord originally too, the dial was definitely replaced at some point in the 1970ies or later) and from about 1959 on they had black plastic cords.
Our W48 is in regular use, every visitor jumps upon hearing it ring... I have to admit though, sometimes it even makes _me_ jump when ringing close to me unexpectedly.

Think I already told the story of the Zylmurbafi dials...

#142981 04/22/05 05:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
Member
Quote
Actually Paul, modifying a 332 to work on modern style phone jacks is quite easy
Yep, didn't mean to say they were difficult to modify electrically for the modern system. It was a reference to Trumpy's joke about trying to terminate an old braided cord into a modern BT plug which I said I wasn't even going to attempt.

When the modular jacks were introduced in the 1980s there were many 746 phones in service, and we used to modify these in a similar way by adjusting the straps and fitting a new cord. It was a pity that the latter didn't come in all the colors to match the phones.

Quote
I don't know how hot BT are on this anymore, they *used* to insist everything complied to BS something or other, but these days it seems pretty much standard to use north amercian equipment,
There was a huge difference between the official position and what happened in practice. I was hooking up all manner of U.S. modems and homebrew equipment to the lines 25 years ago, and never had any queries or problems. If nothing caused any trouble, it was unlikely to be detected. You may remember that there was a lot of imported equipment with the big red "PROHIBITED" triangle on sale in the mid-1980s, just after the red-triangle/green-dot system was introduced in fact. I'm sure nobody would have dreamed of using it...... [Linked Image]

Quote
Speaking of old jacks, the 316 switchboard plugs are *incredibly* well made by modern standards, the things are a pleasure to connect to. Pity nothing uses 1/4 inch connectors anymore.
Yep, and compared to modular plugs also something of a Captain Scarlett connector -- Indestructible! (Well, almost!) [Linked Image]

How many times do you find a new BT plug with the locking tab broken off? They're worse than RJ11s in this respect. No surprises for guessing that I prefer the old 4-prong American plugs over RJ11 too.

Quote
Our rotary dials basically consist of 2 switches. One is open at idle and closes when the dial is turned. The other one is closed in idle an opens while the dial spins back,
As you can see from the schematics here and in the other thread, GPO dials generally had two sets of off-normal contacts, although the exact way they were wired varied on different models.

Quote
party line phones had a 10 wire cord).
Due to the relay box to ensure privacy that you've described before?

Quote
Our W48 is in regular use, every visitor jumps upon hearing it ring...
Amazing isn't it? People are now so used to beepers and (Ugh!) cellphone tunes htat they jump when they hear a real bell. Unless they're old phone fanatics, not that I would know any, of course.... [Linked Image]

Quote
Think I already told the story of the Zylmurbafi dials...

Had to refresh my memory on that one. And for ECN newcomers, here's the story:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000287.html


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 04-22-2005).]

#142982 04/22/05 09:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,253
D
djk Offline
Member
Just thought this was a weird sight in Dublin

[Linked Image from worldpayphones.com]

Dublin payphone operated by ITG (bought out by smarttelecom)

Never seen a US style payphone this side of the atlantic before!

#142983 04/24/05 03:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
Member
Looking at the cement around the base of the pedestal and the adjacent patch next to it in the road, it doesn't look as though that phone has been there very long.

I see it didn't take long for the graffiti and stickers to appear though. [Linked Image]

#142984 04/24/05 04:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,253
D
djk Offline
Member
We had a bit of a "street war" between payphone operators as apparently there is and may still be signifigant money to be made out of credit card and coin calls made by non-mobile carrying tourists and immigrants, students etc who may not want to make a call at mobile rates back home.

For a while we had at least 3 payphone operators, other than eircom (the former PTT) operating payphones in lucrative areas like city centres, airports etc.

However, the bottom must have dropped out of the market as they've all pulled out the country's third phone company Smart Telecom now have all of the non-eircom sites. They replaced all of the other operators equipment (including those US phones as far as I'm aware) with red totally branded Smart Telecom units.

I seriously doubt that either eircom or smart make much money out of the actual use of the phones but they do provide a very high profile on-street public presence for their brands and logos.

Eircom are required, under the terms of their universal service obligation, to continue to provide payphone service. However, in many place which would have had multiple payphones (e.g. back-to-back payphone stands or clusters of kiosks) they've cut back to just a single heavily branded booth with a multipayment phone. In rural areas some of the phones now only accept credit cards.

The eircom callcard (chip based phonecard that has been around since the mid 1980s) apparently still exists but I have no idea where you can purchase them!

Also, in the city centre areas phone kiosks have started to become WiFi hotspots.

I think the payphone, after a century of service, has finally come to the end of its useful life!

#142985 05/06/05 01:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,253
D
djk Offline
Member
Any of you guys fancy a mobile Western Electric 500 handset for your mobile? [Linked Image]
http://www.firebox.com/index.html?dir=firebox&action=product&pid=1044

[Linked Image from theregister.co.uk]

Click the link above to find out more.

It'd look a bit weird, but might be catch on if it cuts down on the radiation exposure from a GSM handset [Linked Image]

#142986 05/07/05 08:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,423
Likes: 3
Member
LOL Dave!,
From the site,
Quote
Because despite a relentless stream of mobile telephonic innovation, talking on the phone just isn't as satisfying as it used to be. For starters you can't slam a mobile down in disgust, chuck the receiver skywards in delight, or re-enact your favourite 'This is the Sweeney, sunshine, and we're comin' ta get ya!' TV moment.
[Linked Image]

#142987 05/08/05 01:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 354
K
Member
I remember my brothers and I having hours of fun on those old telephones by dialling the dial right round and as it was spinning back tapping the hang-up button a couple of times. 5 times out of 10 this would get us a crossed line and we could listen in on peoples conversations and insert comments of our own. That was hillarious. We did this while Mum & Dad were busy watching "The Sweeney".

I saw a guy talking on one of those old hand-sets in a cafe a while ago and I thought he was bananas, until I saw that it was plugged into his mobile ! ! I asked him about it and he said he'd made it himself.

#142988 05/08/05 07:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Member
The Sweeney*!! - Jack Regan, on his 'Manor' shouting "Shut it!*" every two minutes, all the villains ('the slags'*) saying things like "It's a fair cop, Gov'nor*", or "Leggit!*- It's the Old Bill!*", the Ford Cortinas attempting curves before bowling over the camera crew! Happy days!
---------------
* Sweeney (Todd) = Flying Squad, part of New Scotland Yard, in cockney rhyming slang,
Manor = a police precinct.
shut it! = be quiet please.
It's a fair cop!= You caught me red handed, constable!
Guv'nor= a Senior Police Officer
slag= criminal,(sadly now just loose women.)
Leggit = run!
Old Bill = a police officer.


Wood work but can't!
#142989 05/08/05 08:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,423
Likes: 3
Member
Hey Alan,
Wasn't that the series with John Thaw in it?.
Last time I saw it was in 1979 here and the lead character was getting straight whisky poured down his throat, by some thugs.(Not sure what the idea was behind that, certainly not a night out on the town)
Nice to see a guy in France that hasn't forgot where he came from. [Linked Image]

#142990 05/08/05 12:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,253
D
djk Offline
Member
It's true though... you could slam down the old phones and get a good clunk & a bit of bell ringing!

We'd a big old heavy black Northern Telecom 500 model when I was a kid (this was in the 1980s!) It was replaced by much blander Northern Telecom Harmony phone [Linked Image from fcsurplus.ca]

Still there to this day and still capable of being slammed down in disgust.

However, it's useless for doing reinactments of the Sweeney, you might get away with "The Thin Blue Line" though...


also still have one of these:
[Linked Image from eurocosm.com]
One of telecom's standard issues for years. Actually turns out to be a Danish design classic!


And the ultimate telecom eireann classic:
[Linked Image from telephonelines.net]

DTMF only phone based on the northern telecom harmony.
The handset cable just fits into Cork Harbour.

Apparently worth a lot of money as it's a unique version of a Nortel classic phone.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 05-08-2005).]

#142991 05/08/05 01:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Member
djk...and the earpiece nicely moored up in Eddrachillis bay, neat! I liked the old phones, not so complicated for those with depleted brain cells.
Trumpy, it's not the roots I worry about, mate, it's the leaves turning grey and falling off!
Alan


Wood work but can't!
#142992 05/08/05 06:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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pauluk Offline OP
Member
That's a pretty good idea! In my opinion the WE-500 style receiver is the best telephone handset ever designed.

As for "The Sweeney," here's an outline for those who have no idea what this is all about! [Linked Image]
http://www.missingimages.com/thesweeney/

#142993 05/08/05 07:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Member
John Thaw, who played Regan, in 'The Sweeney', sadly passed away in 2002 aged only 60. Cockney 'argot' originated as a sort of 'criminals code' in the poor area East of the Smoke (London), to confuse the police (the Old Bill, the Fuzz (the blue-serge uniforms were fuzzy), and their informers, the grasses, (pop song, 'Whispering Grass'), or snouts (noses). Many words, and the peculier cockney 'gutteral stop' letter 't', 'th' replaced by 'f' and the dropped 'h' have passed into general use. In fact practically the whole of southern England now speak the dreadful 'Estuary English', (I expect it's arrived in Norfolk Paul), the exception being dear old Auntie BBC, but it's not the real thing. (If an American can imagine the whole of New England speaking like Bugs Bunny, you'll get the idea!). Other travesties have GOT to include Dick van Dyke in 'Mary Poppins', (Blimey*!, 'e WAS 'avin a bleedin' larf*, 'e was!) Only one American as far as I can recall got into the pukka* word list- Tod Sloane, (with his "monkey style" of riding) was a popular flat-racing jockey in the early 20th century in the UK, so good he was a constant winner. So "On 'is Tod" means "on his own", as Tod so often was as he crossed the finish line. Sadly I have to report that the lingo is all going for a ball of chalk* now as swearing replaces the more colourful adjectives.

Alan

* ball of chalk = walk.
'avin a larf = taking the mickey.
Blimey = God blind me, an oath.
pukka = proper, from Indian Army game of Polo.


Wood work but can't!
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