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Hot Tub Install #1321
05/07/01 10:11 AM
05/07/01 10:11 AM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
This is the first Hot Tub I've installed that uses straight 240V, no neutral. It has a light in the bottom that I'll assume is low voltage. Thing looks more complex than the motherboard of my PC.

Anyway, the only GFCI 2 pole breakers I've seen and used have a white neutral pigtail and a terminal for the load neutral.

Do I connect the pigtail to the neutral bus or tape it off?

Do I need to get a "straight 240V" GFCI 2 Pole breaker?

I mistakenly installed 6-3 w/#10G, do I attach the neutral up anyway even thought the neutral isn't connected at the hottub?

Will the 120/240V 2 Pole GFCI Breaker work on straight 240V (I'll assume it will, I mean you can luck out and balance a load perfectly...)

I just want the thing to work, the suppliers have never heard of a striaght 240V 2 pole GFCI breaker, and I can't get anything from anybody around here but alot of head scratching and shoulder shrugging.

-Virgil '66



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-07-2001).]


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Hot Tub Install #1322
05/07/01 12:53 PM
05/07/01 12:53 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,903
NY, USA
'66,

Use a standard 240v GFCI Breaker.
The Instructions packaged with it tell you what to do about the Neutral. I'll look and see if I have a copy of instruictions somewhere and post.

Is this inside or out?
What kind of disconnect are you going to use?

Bill

Re: Hot Tub Install #1323
05/07/01 12:59 PM
05/07/01 12:59 PM
Tom  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Shinnston, WV USA
Virgil,

At the panel, you will connect the white wire from the 2 pole GFI breaker.

There is no need to connect a white wire out to the tub if it isn't needed at that end.

A 2 pole breaker works the same way as a 1 pole except in this case 2 hots & the grounded conductor pass through a little transformer. If the imbalance of current exceeds a certain value, the breaker will trip. In other words, amps flowing out must equal amps coming back (or real close to it). The reason that the breaker neutral is connected is that the trip mechanism may work on 120 volts and the instructions (that piece of paper that you thought was packing material [Linked Image] ) will most likely tell you to connect it.

Visit the International Association of Electrical Inspectors at http://www.iaei.com & you should find the following book for sale, which will tell you more than you care to know about GFI'S.

Overcurrents and Undercurrents by Earl W. Roberts

HTH

Tom


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Re: Hot Tub Install #1324
05/07/01 01:45 PM
05/07/01 01:45 PM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
It's rather difficult to read instructions on a breaker that I haven't ordered yet...

Sounds like to me a 120/240V GFCI Breaker would be much more complex and more costly than a straight 240V (with no neutral) if such an animal exists. I visualize needing three coils (line to line, line to ground A leg, line to ground B leg) in a 120/240V GFCI breaker and only one coil for a straight 240V (Line to line). Perhaps said coils are integrated into one, but albeit more complex and expensive.

If a cheaper straight 240V exists, I'm sure my customer would appreciate me getting one.

As far as a Disco, raintite GE (or SQ D if I have to get the expensive ones).


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
Re: Hot Tub Install #1325
05/07/01 02:45 PM
05/07/01 02:45 PM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
Do you need a disco for a residence??
[Linked Image]

Re: Hot Tub Install #1326
05/07/01 03:01 PM
05/07/01 03:01 PM
Tom  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Shinnston, WV USA
Virgil,

All three lines pass through the coil and only one coil is needed. No manufacturer is going to make 2 models when 1 will do the job. There would be very little savings by eliminating the white wire pigtail & one connection for the load side grounded conductor.

If your customer can afford a hot tub, he can afford to pay for the breaker. [Linked Image]

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 05-07-2001).]


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Re: Hot Tub Install #1327
05/07/01 03:39 PM
05/07/01 03:39 PM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
But, conversely, if they did make two types, then it would probably be a violation of 110-3(b)to use the wrong one, if it's specified use is in it's instruction and labeling.

Steve, 680-12, I see no exceptions, but I suppose if it is cord and plug connected (this one isn't) then the cord/plug would qualify as a disco.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-07-2001).]


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
Re: Hot Tub Install #1328
05/07/01 04:02 PM
05/07/01 04:02 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,903
NY, USA
'66,

Quote
It's rather difficult to read instructions on a breaker that I haven't ordered yet...

(I know) [Linked Image]

What I meant was to order/buy the breaker as it is a standard type and the instructions will tell you what you need to know.

Btw,
They have some that come as a disconnect, basically a little subpanel with the GFCI breaker installed already. This is that easiest and you don't have to deal with trying to locate 2 pole GFCI breakers for every type of panel.

Bill

Re: Hot Tub Install #1329
05/07/01 05:37 PM
05/07/01 05:37 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote
Hot Tub ... uses straight 240 V, no neutral.
...
I mistakenly installed 6-3 w/#10G, do I attach the neutral up anyway even thought the neutral isn't connected at the hottub?

I didn't see where anyone tackled this question, yet.

If you left it white and hooked it to the GFCI, any current that ever travels on it would not trip the GFCI.

If the GFCI protection relies for this equipment on there being no neutral current, then I would not hook the white wire to the neutral on the CB.

I say green tape the white wire at both ends and use it for an extra ground.
I see a plus to using this for extra fault current on a 240 V hot tub.
Call it the back up grounding conductor as if you intended it that way all along.
Having a #6 ground makes sense since I infer that this tub has a 50 A CB and is distinctly a wet and barefoot location.

As for the white pigtail on the CB itself, I would hook it to the neutral bar even though it technically carries nothing. That's probably the only way it is intended to be installed.

Re: Hot Tub Install #1330
05/07/01 05:38 PM
05/07/01 05:38 PM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
I'm getting confused here,
680-12 and 680-38
siwtch....no switch ???
[Linked Image]

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