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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline OP
Broom Pusher and
Member
Hello all;

Wanted to create a discussion regarding As-Built Plansets, and possibly D/B or even P.E. Plansets, which Members have either been involved directly or indirectly in the creation of these documents.

Would like to discuss:

<OL TYPE=A>

[*] How much detail was put into the As-Built Planset or E-Sheets,

[*] What do you wish you had put into it/them, or not put into it/them,

[*] What - if any - As-Builts have you seen,

[*] What level of - or lack of - information and accuracy were included with these Plans,

[*] What did you like / dislike about any or all EE Plansets you worked from for gathering notes, doing installs, etc.,

[*] How were your experinces with Architects, as far as obtaining Base Plans, specs, etc. for designing and / or As-Builts,

[*] How were your experinces with Utility Service Planners,

[*] How were your experiences with local Building Department/s, and waht would you suggest to improve things for each party,

[*] What were your experiences with Client's Represenatives other than Architects - like Q.C. Inspectors,

[*] What were your experiences with Client preferred Vendors,

[*] Lastly, were you and the Client satisfied
</OL>

Feel free to discuss any and all projects which fall in these categories, or create your own.

Reasons for me posting this are two-fold:
1: Want to get some "Design and Documentation" discussions going, for the benifit of all Members - in all aspects of the trade (Installations and Designs) - this way we can all learn some new stuff from each other as to Designs and References.

2: There's an on-going thread at MHE regarding "What Does A P.E. Do?", and I thought the topic would be something nice to discuss here - only drop the P.E. thing!
(or we could include P.E. and E.I.T. / F.E. discussions too! I am 100% sure no flame wars will break out here!).

Would like to also discuss ideas of preferred design (and install too), types of reference items done for As-Builts, Final Commissioning documents, labeling, and other detail stuff.
Doesn't have to be limited to Power systems only - can cover Low Voltage systems (comm/data, security, audio, etc,), EMS equipment, Motor control equipment, Co-Generation plants, lighting, anything else we would be involved with.

I have posted this topic before, maybe as far back as 2001, so wanted to bring it up for the opinions and comments from newer Members and those whom may have had the opportunity since the last discussion.

Sure hope this topic gets many hits (responses/replies), and is of interest to everyone.

Post away!

Scott

p.s. I need to compile more LAN/WAN discussions for the Computer section - will be done ASAP.

S.E.T.


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline OP
Broom Pusher and
Member
Any takers??? [Linked Image]

Helloooo, hellooooo, hellooooo - is there anybody in there?... Just nod if you can hear me... Is there anyone Home?
(Slightly stolen from Pink Floyd).

Scott35


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Hi Scott I am a typical American with ADD so you are asking to many questions at once.

You gotta spoon feed us. [Linked Image]

I have to provide rough drawn as builts to the office so our Cad operators can make professional looking ones to turn in.

1)Underground piping is only indicated as far as raceway size and where it comes from and goes to, we make no effort to actually show locations.

2)Overhead runs are also roughly indicated.

3)Circuit numbers are accurately updated, we try hard to keep them as indicated on the original print but some will end up moved for some reason or another.

4)Fire alarm, we do indicate where all devices are located and the rough path of the conductors.

If we tried to provide measurements to underground runs and they prove to be wrong we are in a worse position then just not providing measurements in the first place.

There are some jobs where we have to do as builts "to the extreme" these are usually jobs that have in house maintenance and facility people that know they are going to be stuck with bad as builts unless they start making some noise about the as builts from day one.

I have been way to honest here. [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 75
B
Member
Scott,

Our company engineers custom control systems and so there tends to be a lot of changes
from the original prints to the finished set. So it's important for all of these changes to be properly recorded.

Unfortunately, these days you can't do anything without getting a lawyer involved. Ours gave us a talk several years ago about "as-built" drawings. The most important thing he said was to NEVER use the term "as built" at anytime. Always use the term "record drawings".

Evidently in the legal world using the term "as built" means you are telling (guaranteeing) to someone how something was built or wired where as using "record drawing" only means this is how you recorded the construction. A stupid legal technicality but he said millons of dollars
are saved & lost due to this loophole.

What kind of world are we living in???????

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Bill you hit the nail on the head.

The lawyers are the reason for this.

Quote
If we tried to provide measurements to underground runs and they prove to be wrong we are in a worse position then just not providing measurements in the first place.

[Linked Image]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 642
N
Member
Or you can turn in a as built set of drawings for a project, the in a couple of years come back to it for a remodel and discover that the owner no longer has the as builts. [Linked Image]


ed
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 582
R
Ron Offline
Member
In our specs we require the electrician to update anything on the contract drawings that is different than that was shown by us and call them record drawings.
We also have the elec. turn over approved copies of shop drawings/submittals, sequences of operations for equip. along with manufacturers maintenance requirements in an O&M Manual to the owner. Depending on the complexity of the project, there are conduit coordination drawings produced by the Elec as shop drawings and they are turned over as part of shop drawings.
Depending on the complexity of the project, we have the Elec's markups converted by the Elec into CAD, and sometimes we do the conversion for the owner.


Ron
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline OP
Broom Pusher and
Member
Thanks for the replies so far!

I'll add a few comments later.

Scott35


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 599
N
Member
I'll give this a stab!
A) Plan sets from engineers are increasingly bad these days. There are so many errors and omissions that you can't build the project. I have dealt with many different firms over the years and have come to the conclusion that it's not because there is a lack of knowledge, it's time and money constraints. The electrical is a following discipline just like we are a following trade. The engineer can't finish his design, or in some cases even begin, until everyone else has fed him the information for their stuff. By this time the architect is breathing down his neck to finish so they can't plot and go to bid or plan check or both. This combined with engineering firms applying pressure to reduce overhead gives us the end result of incredibly bad drawings. It is then up to the EC to find all the problems, get them resolved and build the project. So to answer A I think not near enough detail goes into E-sheets.
As for as-builts, I have yet to walk onto a remodel project where IF "as-builts" exist they are anything more than the last set of contract documents issued. I think as-builts should be very detailed. (Yes we are calling them record drawings now to for the exact reasons Bill stated)Under ground conduit locations identified, major overhead racks shown, home run j-boxes and exact locations of equipment. Lately this has been easy for me because the jobs have been requiring a fully coordinated drawing effort submitted for approval. All the layout work is done ahead of time and it's pretty easy to make the slight modifications that occurred on CAD and re label it a record drawing.
I'll try and address the other questions later? [Linked Image]

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 507
G
Member
Right on Nick!

Sometimes we get plans that are so bad the stack of addendums is as thick as the spec. book. You would think that they could update the plans before starting the build, but no, that might cost a buck.

No fun to bid and even worse to build.

GJ

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