ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area What's wrong with this Question?

I will take a swing here ...

As far as being an electrictian I am only a DIY guy.

I wired my house 20 years ago, my daughter's house 3 years ago, and my wife's office and my shop in the past couple years.

I expect the wiring is to code.

25 years ago I hired an electrictian to wire my first house. After it passed inspection, I noticed that about 1/2 of the breaker wires were wrapped the wrong way around the screws and there were 2 grounded conductors (not grounds) under each screw. A total of 30 errors in one box as it were. I fixed all of these errors.

If I were a contractor doing a dozen homes a year, I could absorb the losses of hiring poor electrictians until I found a good one. As a DIY doing wiring once or twice a year, I cannot afford to pay twice for every small job on my house.

(A single recept costs less than $1. Having it installed can easily cost $30. The economics are against hiring even competent electrictians.)

I think the biggest problem with answering a technical how-to question is that there is no way of knowing if they understand your directions. They might listen intently, and nod their head as if to understand, but when installation time comes, I bet more questions arise (now, which was the line, and which was the load again?). Unless I am involved in the follow-up or completion work, which would allow me to inspect the DIY work, safety considerations would prevent me from giving advice. There's just too much room for error.
Most of us see horrendous installations on a regular basis, and read about the life lost due to electrical problems. It is not worth putting the lives of your children at risk in order to save a few bucks.
It is better to know WHY things are done certain ways, not just THAT they are.

This one really strikes close to home. I was at one of the big home improvement stores just this past weekend to purchase the "fixin's" for some heavy duty extension cords I build from time to time. Just a short distance down the aisle, a salesman was offering Harry Homeowner some installation instructions (a common occurrence...). Ordinarily I don't pay much attention to this, but the subject on this particular occasion was "how to install a GFCI" breaker. Thinking about this thread, I couldn't help but move a bit closer to be within earshot. Paraphrasing: "your hot wire goes in here (Harry looks confused), this curly white wire connects to the bar where all the other white wires are, and the breaker plugs into the panel...that's all there is to it." Harry asks about the extra lug on the breaker. "you don't use that" is the reply.

I'm ashamed to say that I turned around and left without saying anything about this to anyone (too shocked and dismayed, I guess). What would y'all have done?

Mike (mamills)

Possibly material for a new thread, but...
One of the "Home Improvement Centers" is now even including electrical "how-to" instructions in their advertisements.

Mike:
At this point I usually do exactly what you did shake my head and walk away.

Redsy:
that sounds like a real good one, now they are giving how-to instructions.

-Mark-

Hot Topic, eh?
(It's a new week.. I'm calmer now)

Mike,

Even if the information you overheard being given was technically correct, don't you think that the simple, offhand manner in which it was presented may be putting that person in Danger during the installation process? How do you explain (or leave out) all the cautions and possibilities of working around a service panel where some portion may be energized?

Once you get past the usual arguments offered about Money and "Trade Secrets" there still remains a difficult issue to contend with. Using this example, if this person (or someone else) gets injured during installation or afterwards, who is to blame and could it have been prevented?

It is a difficult call, and there is some merit to both arguments. But when compared side by side it seems to me that one is 'safer' overall. By not having this information (and having it explained to seem so simple) this person may not have had the confidence to attempt it himself and would have seeked someone more knowledgable and experienced (which would have prevented his injuries). IMO, the part that tips the scales is that, to my knowledge, no one can be held accountable for not giving such information, whereas giving wrong or incomplete instruction may be quite a different story.

My feeling is that when a topic or question comes up that is potentially dangerous to the asker or others it is best to point the inexperienced and untrained person towards resources and people that can best explain the situation and help them to resolve it. This includes Qualified Electricians, good Books and experienced Teachers.

So, IMO, it's not a Money or 'Trade Secrets' thing, I just think that it's best that people that are not equipped with certain skills and are not aware of all the hazards involved should not be asking or getting instruction in this manner. Additionally, I would not want participants here to be put in the position, or feel obligated to respond with cautious and tedious detail to every question a neophyte can come up with. That is not the purpose of this Forum.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-22-2002).]

Bill, carrying your thought a little farther....do you guys think we should be going to the store manager and telling him/her that their employees are going to kill somebody someday with bad advice? If it's pointed out to them that they may be held liable they may stop giving advice and start telling their customers to hire liscensed electricians. Just my two cents.
Tom

wire654
a possibly full time job that most here do not desire. once again, however, the dreaded ( striking fear in the hearts of on-line contractors) LLLLL word rears it's ugly head....


just who is liable?

methinks of self-help forums disclaimers here.....

BTW, where's Rob????


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-22-2002).]

Look at the contrast between these two stores:

1. My local hardware store & building supply shop in my nearest small town has a sign up over the drums of cable: "Sorry, but we do not give advice on electrical installations. If in doubt, please consult a qualified electrician."

2. The big "warehouse" type DIY store in the city has a guy walking around with "Electrician" on his apron ready to give hints to anyone who asks, and they also have other signs posted showing how to wire certain devices.

(Curiously, this store also has everyone wearing orange aprons. I wonder if they're owned by the same international conglomerate?)

Mike, I would of jumped in there and tried to give a better set of instructions and then stressed the importance of a properly installed GFCI device. Then I'd say "yeah, there's no telling how many lives have been save by a GFI when installed the right way, but theres no telling how many people have been electrocuted by one wired wrong either". Then I would walk off.