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#111743 02/09/07 08:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 329
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yeah, better with the door shut gets my vote too

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#111744 02/09/07 09:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 288
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Quote
So somebody upgraded to THIS????

Uh, yeah, it's an upgrade. How else were you supposed to get a GFCI breaker in there? [Linked Image]

What amazes me is that the old asbestos-lined box (perfectly legal in 1923) is actually big enough for any reasonably-sized circa-1970s GE busbar assembly. Then again, the diagram shows 24 Edison fuseholders (Is that 24 circuits or 12? Fused neutrals were still common back then.), so I guess you could shoehorn it in.

I tend to think this might have been an acceptable repair at one time if the old fuseholders burned up. The thing that makes it unacceptable is that this "upgrade" was clearly motivated by the desire to add more circuits. Most of the cables seen are thermoplastic insulation, for cryin' out loud!

#111745 02/09/07 10:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 288
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Quote
Is the blob at the bottom of the "enclosure" a cord connector?

That blob is a legitimate fitting for the wiring method used (flexible metallic conduit). I believe it is called a monkeyface. This is what you would use when you had to transition from flex to K&T.

Quote
Two options here:
1) Rip it all out and start over
2) Run away screaming

That all depends. If the homeowner goes ballistic at hearing the possibility of plaster being removed, you run away screaming. If they are game, you help them. That is what we are in business for.

Note the porcelain tubes projecting from the left hand wall of the box. These are no doubt why the previous installer decided to leave the original enclosure intact. Judging from the appearance of the GE equipment, this was probably done in the '60s or early '70s, before the health hazards of asbestos were well-known to the public. The installer was probably more concerned about disturbing the insulation on the K&T circuits, certainly a dicey thing if you were going to cram a factory NEMA 1 enclosure in there. But if you were to open the chases on each side of the panel, remember that it remains perfectly legal to conceal soldered and taped splices on existing K&T. A better option, of course, would be to rewire all of the K&T circuits. A talk with the AHJ would be in order before proceeding.

Fortunately, this call is more and more made easier by the fact that home inspectors recognize and note K&T when they see it, and insurance companies frequently will not issue new policies where the house is known to have K&T. These facts tend to give us more leverage with homeowners than in the past.

[This message has been edited by yaktx (edited 02-15-2007).]

#111746 02/10/07 12:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 17
F
Member
I'm sorry I haven't been able to post to this earlier but here goes.

This is a 5500/6000 sf eight bedroom house built probably in the 20's. Originally wired with knob and tube and probably a huge for the time 60amp service with a main panel in the kitchen and a sub panel on the second floor.

There is evidence of at least two major upgrades in the past. The BX cable and additional wall sconces would be from somewhere in the 40's or 50's. with a bedroom converted to a master bath suite and a kitchen make over about 1988.

Apparently during the 1988 upgrades this mess was created, it is the original wooden fuse box with the innards of a moder GE 20/30 breaker panel installed. Surprisingly they managed to keep the neutrals isolated, however I don't think the twisting of all the grounds together and screwing to one small lug attached to the "monkey face" would not be the most reliable solution.
As bad as this is, the wiring within the walls that has not seen the light of day for generations is in very good condition and much of it will be retained.
The plan for this round of upgrades includes all new service equipment, new sub-panels on the second floor and garage, a major kitchen remodel (something in the $75 /$100k range), a major bathroom upgrade and misc. additions throughout the house.

This home has been vacant for several years with the current owners living out of state. Their plan is to make some upgrades and put the house on the market.

Today I replaced that mess and the results con be seen here; https://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e75/fww56/Beechwood%20Blvd%20Panel/

FRANK

#111747 02/10/07 08:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,497
T
Member
Now that looks good... however, personally O'd have kept the panel door without the asbestos to turn it into a cabinet door - it's a niece piece of carpentry.

However, that picture shows how codes vary around the world: in Austria it's illegal to splice more than ONE circuit in the same junction box! Wires of other circuits can only pass through. That gave me a HUGE headache when trying to partially rewire a 1965 apartment where none of the later hacks had cared about that...

#111748 02/15/07 12:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 288
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Member
I guess if the house was that well-wired for its time, the K&T might still be in decent shape and you would be justified in leaving it alone, at least on the lighting circuits. The minority of houses I see with K&T had only one or two circuits for years, and no doubt they were overfused for much of that time. The K&T houses I see are one-story and originally had only one lighting fixture per room, and no receptacles. There will generally be receptacles added to the circuit with '50s-era romex. Attic temps routinely reach 140F around here. Rubber insulation is likely to be toasty. I realize it is not like that everywhere.

BTW, how much does asbestos abatement add to the bid? I've never had to handle that!

#111749 02/15/07 04:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,497
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Quote
BTW, how much does asbestos abatement add to the bid? I've never had to handle that!
Largely depends on location. Some states will just tell you to handle it carefully, double-bag it and drop it off at the dump. Others immediately call for the guys in the space suits and shut down the entire place...

#111750 02/16/07 07:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 812
Member
Quote
BTW, how much does asbestos abatement add to the bid? I've never had to handle that!

I know around here it's quite a bit, due to people being forced by township inspectors to replace cracked asbestos siding.

Ian A.


Is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
#111751 02/16/07 07:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 812
Member
Quote
BTW, how much does asbestos abatement add to the bid? I've never had to handle that!

I know around here it's quite a bit, due to people being forced by township inspectors to replace cracked asbestos siding.

Ian A.


Is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
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