ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc

Call 110.3(A)(8) and be done with it! In the interest of safety!

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 06-27-2002).]

Doc
Look at the substantiation for proposal 15-20 in the 2001 ROP. This proposal added the words "performance area" to the title of 520.
The substantiation for this change was, "Article 525 has been missapplied by AHJs to touring concerts and theater productions in outside performance areas". The panel comments supported this in the ROC. I'm not sure of Frank's exact application, but if it is for a band or similar type of performance, the installation is to be made per 520 and not 525.
Don

After reading the discussion and referring to my code book, I would say that Art. 525 applies and that GFCI protection is not required.

I'm still intrested to see which way this goes though.

Don-

For my particular job Article 525 applies. I looked in my 2002 McGraw-Hill's NEC Handbook on page 1169 and read: "(C) all other receptacles, of any voltage or current rating, must be protected by a GFCI. This of course is in reference to NEC 525.23(C). This leads me to believe my 240V, 50A. receptacles must be GFCI protected.

Frank

90.6 Formal Interpretations.

To promote uniformity of interpretation and application of the provisions of this Code, formal interpretation procedures have been established and are found in the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects.

The procedures for implementing Formal Interpretations of the provisions of the NEC are outlined in “NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects.” These regulations are included in the NFPA Directory, which is published annually and can be obtained from the Secretary of the NFPA Standards Council. The Formal Interpretations procedure can be found in Section 6 of the Regulations.

The National Electrical Code Committee cannot be responsible for subsequent actions of authorities enforcing the NEC that accept or reject its findings. The authority having jurisdiction is responsible for interpreting Code rules and should attempt to resolve all disagreements at the local level.

Two general forms of Formal Interpretations are recognized: (1) those that are interpretations of the literal text and (2) those that are interpretations of the intent of the Committee at the time the particular text was issued.

Interpretations of the NEC not subject to processing are those that involve (a) a determination of compliance of a design, installation, product, or equivalency of protection; (b) a review of plans or specifications or judgment or knowledge that can be acquired only as a result of on-site inspection; (c) text that clearly and decisively provides the requested information; or (d) subjects not previously considered by the Technical Committee or not addressed in the document.

Formal Interpretations of Code rules are published in the NFPA Electrical Section News Bulletin, “Current Flashes,” and in the National Fire Codes subscription service and are sent to interested trade publications.
Most interpretations of the NEC are rendered as the personal opinions of NFPA Electrical Engineering staff or of an involved member of the National Electrical Code Committee because the request for interpretation does not qualify for processing as a Formal Interpretation in accordance with “NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects.”

Such opinions are rendered in writing only in response to written requests. The correspondence contains a disclaimer indicating that it is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations and that any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author and does not necessarily represent the official position of NFPA or the National Electrical Code Committee.

Thank you Joe.

Frank,
It looks to me like you are setting up a performace area for a band.
Don


[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 06-28-2002).]

Joe T.,
I understand the reason for the "90.6" post. If it were me, I would call the AHJ first, and see what they have to say about it. Then, if the AHJ gave me an interpretation that I didn't agree with, I would go through the procedures for "formal interpretation".

Don,
I read the ROP, and I see your point. The point that I was trying to make is that a comment is made on page 767 of the Handbook that pertains to 518 & 520 and how those two articles apply to permanent structures. Even 525.3(B) states:
So, I hope you can see why I made the statement I did. Let me continue by saying that I agree with you that Frank's application sounds like a "set up" for a band, or a "D.J.". I think that the purpose for ROP 15-20 is directed at That "wording" sounds to me like large shows that travel all over America (the professionals, if you will).
Mr. Vannice, who made the propsal, admits that 520 is He goes on to say that I have a feeling that in the past these large "shows" would come to a city, and the AHJ's would tell them that the equipment had to be GFI protected which caused problems with their equipment. These applications could, I would venture to say, be 100's or maybe 1000's of amps with large dimming systems and lighting controls. I think Mr. Vannice is saying, "Hey, we will install our equipment under more "restrictive" rules. Just don't make us submit to the GFI rule because our equipment won't work properly if GFI protected."
IMHO this is a far cry from the "50 amp pigtail" that was posed in the original post, and it would not be "inappropriate" to make the installation under 525. I think that you will agree that there is a lot of difference between "Joe Fish and the Boneheads" (a weekend local band), and Eric Clapton, Ozzy Osbourne, George Strait (for you C&W fans), or Snoop Doggy Dog (for all you rappers out there). I should mention J-Lo as well because the last time I checked her b00ty could be classified as a Performance Area (man that girl has a "backyard" on her). Don, I just "dug my heels in" on this one. Are you going to cut my feet off at the ankles?

Respectfully Submitted,
Doc

PS
I've enjoyed this thread so far. It's made me get in my code book, and that's a good thing.

Frank is the AHJ here and he has the duty of enforcing the NEC per 90.4.

If nothing else, Article 527 may be another way to address the need for the protection.

PS: A defective electrical instrument could carry current, and could be the cause of an electrical accident, trust me!

Also, some of the members here send me an email message and most of the time I include my reply here so all can see where I am coming from.

Gentleman-

I'm sorry if I caused a little confusion by not being more specific. The two 240 volt, 50 amp. receptacles are going to used for large public address systems in the State Park for a July 4th celebration. General announcements will be made along with a simulcast of a local radio station. No stage performances etc. That is the only need for 240 volt, 50 amp receptacles.
As I mentioned previously, the remainder of the power needs will be served with 125 volt, 20 amp. receptacles, primarily for food vendors. They will be all GFCI protected.
Many of events like this will take place across our Country this year. I hope nobody is getting bored with this thread because I do think it is applicable and the questions are sensible.

Frank