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#107304 10/18/04 10:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,672
Likes: 2
Admin Offline OP
We found this one, 38 circuits plus a 100 amp sub tied to the feeder wires (no breaker) (100 amp sub was about 100 + feet away from this panel) you may notice this is only a 30 space panel. and the yellow so cable that is coming in the bottom (12/2) of the panel is running the water heater? we did eliminate alot of junk like driveway lights (shorted to ground) barn which was about 200 feet away from house (which was shorted to ground). the septic pump (which was shorted to ground). Not to mention the reason we got called was one of the feeders underground was shorted to ground. I hope you like how we changed it?

- Jwww
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#107305 10/18/04 11:27 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
Although allowed in the code, I usually don't like seeing white re-identified, or wire nuts in a panel, but given the circumstances........ (Before/after) Not bad.

I'll often times in panel changes, if space allows, put a large can the width of the panel above the panel and do all the splicing there, and nipple into the panel in a 2" or larger, do all the grounding and splicing there.

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#107306 10/19/04 05:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
Although allowed in the code, I usually don't like seeing white re-identified,

I do not understand, this is necessary on a cable job for 240V circuits unless you run 12/3 and abandon the white.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
#107307 10/19/04 04:40 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
It looks nice and clean, Jwww, especially considering all the ground wires. One sure way to create a spaghetti mess is to leave an extra foot on all the wires and loop them inside the panel. Don't mind e57, it's the weather that make him grumpy.


#107308 10/19/04 07:48 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
Bob, I live in a world of fascist Inspectors, and if the are given the opprotunity to have you open the whole thing, you can bet they will! They see white on a breaker, they want to see every box. Not that I have anything to hide, but the fewer questions they have, the easier my life is. And a few, although allowed in the code, will want the whole conductor perminantly marked, all the way to the sheath, and for the phase that its on in existing installs. And for new install SF has an addendem to the code.
210-5(c). Add the following new section:

(c)Ungrounded Conductors. Underground conductor insulation shall be color coded as follows:

(1)One-hundred-twenty/two-hundred-forty-volt 3-wire circuits - “A” phase black, “B” phase red; 120/208 volt 4-wire 3-phase wye circuits - “A” phase black, “B” phase red, “C” phase blue; 120/240 volt 3-phase delta circuits - “A” phase black, “B” (high leg) phase purple, “C” phase red; 277/480 volt 4-wire 3-phase wye circuits - “A” phase brown, “B” phase orange, “C” phase yellow.

(2)Conductors for switch legs may be of a different color than the phase conductor other than green, white or gray when suitably identified at pull, junction and outlet boxes with marking tape, tagging or other equally effective means.

(3)Conductor insulation shall contain the applicable color pigment for circuit wire #14 AWG through #10 AWG. Ungrounded conductors #8 AWG and larger and ungrounded conductors of any size in cable assemblies may be pigmented colors other than green, white or gray, provided they are suitably identified at pull, junction and outlet boxes with marking tape, tagging or other equally effective means.

(FPN): See Section 200-7 for limitations on the use of white and natural gray colors.

Exception: Extensions of existing non-color-coded wiring systems need not be color coded.
They way they read thier own code in that #3 area is that 14 - 10 must be in the isulation color, no re-identification, and #8 and larger can be re-identified if any color other than wite or green. So yep, I do have a neutral there with 240/220 2-wire, like it or not, in any cable based new, or remodel. And if they see wire nuts.... You'll end up in the "panel as a J-box debate"! One you may win, but have a hard time doing. Like anywhere else, it is not so much playing by the rules, but not having the rules in question, makes for an easier game.

Anyway, Jwww, nice work, and a definate improvement on the prior install, or what was left of the original install.

Many people are weary of showing there own work sometimes, and I do not think rightfully so. What I can do, you may not be able to do, and vise versa. Just by standard practice in different areas of the country. But I think it is important to see them, as it is a learning experiance for all. Something I really like about this site. I have seen things I could not even fathom of doing, or get away with, that are perfectly acceptable in other places. And, I'm sure if some other guys saw some of my work, they'd be like: "You can not do that!"


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#107309 10/19/04 09:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4
Junior Member
I appreicate the feed back, I know it seems different in someways, but in this area (Eastern Missouri) it is acceptable (at least at this time)things change to often because of people doing it there own way.

#107310 10/19/04 10:05 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
On a service upgrade when I know there will be a lot of short wires, sometimes I'll run the wires into a junction box near the panel, then pull new wires from there into the panel. That solves the issue of not using a panel as a junction box unless there's adequate space.

I've never figured the cubic inch space of a panel, but it's hard to believe that adequate space would be an issue.


#107311 10/21/04 05:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,143
Even as messy as some of the panels we've all seen, can you imagine the number of conductors that would be present in one that was maxed on fill?

Even if you only figure that the wiring areas are sized the same as a 4"x4" raceway, that means that (if you apply the 20% fill rate for gutters and surface metal raceways) there's still 3.2 in/sq (20% of 16 in/sq) for wiring...

Of course, there's supposed to only be 30 current carrying conductors in any one cross section...

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