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#105151 05/26/04 09:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Thank you!!

"Hey Joe,

Although we have never cordially met. I have seen some interesting pictures and assumptive correlations within regard to those photos. I must say its definitely nice to have someone focusing on what truly
needs to be pushed. KNOWLEDGE and discussion.

Well anyways here are those photos if you would like to post them on your site. I look forward to speaking with you in the near future. Have a good day. Also those floorboards are nailed down to the top of those ceiling joists."

[Linked Image from]

[Linked Image from]

[Linked Image from]

[Linked Image from]

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 27
I hope the persons running around adding things to old wiring like this has very good general liability insurance. Looks like eventually they'll need it. Several code violations here even too numerous to mention. This town has a good fire department right?

[This message has been edited by wirenut73 (edited 05-26-2004).]

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
The attic space with so many problems, this is this typical when the work is done by someone who may not realize the hazards.

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 821
I see "work" like this almost every day. And whenever I do come across something like this I never touch it because its like opening a can of worms. What I will do, though, is tell the homeowner/ business owner about it, let him/ her know the danger, and then get the go ahead to fix it before doing anything with it.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 1
Cat Servant
From time to time, some folks get all excited when they discover a fuse box, an FPE panel, K&T wiring, or, even, cloth-covereg romex (w/o a ground).

These are simply older materials. I do not consider them, of themselves, to be of any particular hazard (please- lets not go off on these tangents!). I do, however, recognize that things are seldom left unchanged for fifty years!

So- these are the sorts of very real hazards to look for, when examining an older house.
For this house, a lot of the dangers can be properly blamed upon the current occupant; yellow romex hasn't been around very long.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2
Junior Member
Ever wonder why our home owners insurance is so expensive ? hhmmmmmmmmm....

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,438
Who wants to bet there's likely more fun hiding under the rest of the boards? This looks eerily familiar to many a crawlspace I've had to troubleshoot...

Once again, job security in the service industry [Linked Image]


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
The notches cut into the extreme fibers of those joists, seriously weakens them.
I= bd3/12,... z= I/y
let max stress at the extreme fiber = WL/8z
Let W max = 1000lb
Let L = 160"
let d= 8", let b= 2"
I = 85.3 z= 21.3 stress mid span = 939 psi

Now cut a notch center span, say 1" deep;
now d = 7" and;
I = 57 z = 16.3 stress ms = 1227 psi

288 psi increase = + 31% stress increase!

Quite apart from deflection considerations:-
span/d originally = 160/8 = 20
Notched span/d = 160/7 = 22.8
The cut joists will now probably be outside the deflection envelope= floor bounce/ cracked plaster etc..

If the engineeer wanted 7" joists he would have specified them. The only safe place to cut a simply supported joist is on the the neutral axis, ie on center. It's imperative not to cut or drill any joists which are continuous, those with a centre support(s) or encastré, or those forming part of a triangulated-truss. The neutral axis, ( if it even exists! ) may not be on the center line!
To notch engineered joists, [OSB web/ softwood flanges] would be to court disaster, as most of the load is carried in the softwood; the manufacturers specify where and how big access holes in their products may be safely cut....
...and eventually, oh dear!, a 'DIY weekend warrior' is going to climb up into his loft, (fitted with engineered joists), with his axe.....


Wood work but can't!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1
Junior Member
I am just a first year electrical technologies student and have already learned that wiring laid in notches in wood studs, joists, or rafters also require to be protected by a 1/16'' steel plate,according to article 300.4 of the NEC. Even as a student still learning the code i see many violations in that photo such as no conectors on the box. also looks like the box is scorched where the yellow 12 AWG enters the box. Now that the new cable has been added the box it is now most likely too small for the conductor count allowed. But since there is no cover there should be extra room now right? haha. yeah sure!

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