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WebSparky removed this old switchgear this week!

Front view of main disconnect switches for 240V 3-phase delta. This is the first means of disconnection for the complex.

See if you can find the "fusible links" in the following photos.














More to follow ......




[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-13-2003).]

I've never seen anything like that,and hope I never run across anything like it.

Joe, was that a trick question? I sure don't see any fuses...or at least any I would recognize. I guess they're inside the switch boxes with the knifeswitch on the sides, right?

I wouldn't mind hooking up that awesome bare-bones three-pole knife switch to something at home!! Too bad I don't have a 220-volt high-power air conditioner. JUST KIDDING!!!

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 03-13-2003).]

Looks like that disconnect on the top left of the third photo is above 6 feet. shame! shame!

The working space in front of the disconnect panels looks to be a violation.

The 3M corporation thanks you for the demonstration of the isulating qualities of their tape.

This stuff is classic. I hope it was saved for the antique as well as for converstational interests. Back in the good old days when safety was in the eye of the beholder.

Just how old is that transformer? Any PCB concerns?

Any photos of the new installation available?

RSlater,
RSmike

The fusible links are "in-line" type, covered with tape, and if ya look hard enough, you can make them out in the pic Joe posted. At the right and left sides of the transformer.
Have to go now, be back ASAP
John

I would expect that the transformer is way too old to have PCB oil. I don't think that was used before the late 50s.
Don

It’s easy to forget that at one time deadfront gear was not used. Those are some great photos of some hideous equipment.

Joe, were these pics taken on the North-American continent?

The place also looks like it would rate in the top ten for EPA-Superfund sites. I can’t imagine that someone buying into/signing off an “upgrade” consisting of no more than stencils and a tablespoon of white paint. All that’s missing is a broomstick with a nail for “safe” switching.

Are the interrupting ratings for this stuff NEGATIVE numbers?

Hi Guys,

This old switchgear has been in use since 1920! It was powered off a high voltage transformer (Y-DELTA windings, 11,400V / 250V delta, ungrounded on the load side) across the driveway next to the building.

We received a service call Monday at 9am. about partial power loss at the complex.
Since we have performed service work there before and the complex has high voltage through out, the two "old farts" were dispatched to see what the problem was.

We arrived and met the maintenance electrician with the keys to the vault. We checked the high voltage meter on the outside of the vault and the phase indicators said that we lost "B" phase.
The customer phoned the POCO and they dispatched a crew.

Upon their arrival, we entered the vault. They checked the 25A 11,400V fuses and found "B" was blown.

Since there was no way to drop the load on the secondaries, (those knife switches were protected by a block wall located 21" directly in front of them)the POCO had to transfer other customers off of that grid to a temporary grid leaving this customer the only one live.

After 2 hours time, POCO returned. This time they brought 2 supervisors, two high votage crews and a transformer tech to test the transformer when it was down for the fuse replacement. The transformer has a date on it of 1908.

Because NO ONE of us present was willing to step in and throw those knife switches, even with hot gloves and a hot stick, the POCO had to drop the grid remotely via computer contol.

Once they did, the testing began. Since we could not effectively isolate the tramsformer secondaries, (because NO ONE was willing to throw the switches closed if we opened them now)the test was canceled after several inspections by us and the POCO crews.

The crew replaced the high voltage fuse. They ordered all of us back to a safe distance (duh!)and switched the transformer back on line via live cell phone person to person conversation and computer control downtown.

When the switch was made, the overhead service drop to the next building with the knife switches began to dance up and down and make a terrible noise. The cell phone conversation was "shut it down, shut it down, shut it down".

Houston, we have a problem.

Since there were 3 separate overhead drops to the building and only one of them was dancing, we cut the wires and taped them off.

The POCO then gave the command to re-energize the grid again. This time, no problem. Two out of the three were good.

As you look at the knife switches, the one on the top right was the one with the short.
Notice the sixth photo. There is a "U" shaped thingy bolted between the line side of the switch and the load side. Those are the "fusable links". They are made of a composit of copper and lead and have no rating markings on them. They still look fine!

Yesterday after installing a temporary service drop and reconnecting all of the loads you see in the photos, (23 wire splices) we reenergized the complex.

I am glad my company has taken the time and expence to train all of the field employees in the OSHA 30 Safety class. Not that we were dumb before that, but having the proper training and knowledge most likely saved a few lives durring this service call.

The complex has contracted with us to install two new 480V services to replace the old one here.

The way we originally got this client was through a service call back in the summer when one of their other high voltage swicthgear blew them of the grid and several other clients. Because of our professionalism and our unwillingness to compromise safety standards during this service call, they naturally called us first when they went down.

Yes, safety does pay. It's just like anything else of value, it takes an investment.

I will follow up with photos of the new switchgear.

Dave

OK, I see the fuse links now. It's the things that I first mistook for some sort of cable bracket....

What's going to happen to those knife switches? Museum?

Someone should set up an exhibit of stuff like that....lord knows there's museums of all kind of weird things now!

Dave:

Thank you for taking the time to photograph as well as write about the old gear. I admire the fact that everyone put their training (and common sense, no doubt) to practical use. What a story!

WebS — That was a very interesting account and some killer images. Without pictures, many readers would find such a description almost unfathomable. Indeed, a crucial part of energized {or not proven deenergized} electrical-equipment safety is knowing when to “step back.”

By any chance, was this what you found feeding it? ;-)

Remember that one from: https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000253.html ?

Some days when you get out of bed, it’s hard to imagine what’s in store for the day...




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 03-14-2003).]

Thanks to all of you for your comments!

Heck, you call that a transformer!
Naaah!
This is a transformer!



This is the Y-Delta 11,400V / 250V transformer that supplied the old switchgear. It stands 85" tall and is oval shaped. It's width is 64" and it's depth is 28". This is a view of the load side wires. I'm guessing they are 1500kcmil. type R or RW insulation. You can see the high voltage wires over the top and the white rectagle is the high voltage fuse box. The dark wet looking areas that you see is rain water!



[This message has been edited by WebSparky (edited 03-14-2003).]

And the rating plate.

High voltage POCO air splices. Interesting how they enclosed the high voltage switches in a brick free standing enclosure. Last summer after a heavy rain, we opened the door to check what the "sparking noise" was. (notice the black color of the cieling) It looked like the computer generated lightning streaks, light blue color, all over the ceiling and walls, except it was real voltage seeking ground. Smelled like ozone. We closed the door and suggested that the company phone a roofing contractor right away!






[This message has been edited by WebSparky (edited 03-14-2003).]

The overhead load side bus system. Notice the 9 wires leaving the building wall through ceramic tubes. Remember, all of this is protected by the high voltage fuses only! From here they run through the air overhead to the next building with the first means of disconnection. They cross a 25' wide driveway/loading dock and at the lowest point of the "sag" they measure 11'! Not bad considering they exit the building at 9"8"!

Based on the transformer label with all the secondary bushings {external connections} you should be able to reuse that nice 95-year-old transformer! It looks like it has dual-secondary coils per phase, so it would be Duck Soup to change the existing paralleled 240V-delta arrangement to series for the building’s new-and-improved 480V service. You’ll be an instant hero with all the money you saved! ;-)

i know of a power plant that has old switch boards similar too this. around he 30's i guess. was used to power a old cotton mill.now powers part of the city. it's a hydro plant. old slow moving gennys. but something to admire in the quality that was put in to it. but not very safe by today's standards.

hey web sparky, what KVA was this puppy?what did it weigh?like ya said "here's a transformer".GE "we bring good things to life."

Bjarney;

You're right. One problem. POCO owns it.
Actually, I'm glad they own it! Really glad.
First one I've seen with this type of windings.......very flexable. One interesting thing I've never noticed or paid attention to before is that the "C" phase windings are shown wound opposite of the other two and the wiring diagram shows the "A" phase is connected the same as the "C" phase. Seems odd. I'm guessing harmonics canceling?

circuit man;
Hummm........I believe it's a 400KVA. Imagine the fault current!

It is certainly the largest one of this type that I've had the pleasure of walking next to.

One thing though...... These vaults always get my full attention when I'm in 'em. I look forward to the time when all of these old POCO vaults are replaced.

RSmike;


Nope. Want it? All ya have to do is drive to Cleveland, Oh. and it's yours!

Dave

Bjarney;

Huh?? Negitive? I did not know there was negitive!

Negative interrupting ratings mean explodes under normal use. ;-)

Aahhhh! Gotch-ya!

wow that do bring old memories with old switch gears i deal with that before with one compane they use steam turbine generator and very old diesel engine also the panel board have alot of kinke switches too it is very spooky when replace fuses and yeah thanks for showing old transfomer photo that is pretty big one for that size at first i thouht it was more like 750 kva but you say 400 kva that is big sucker i did see old 750 blew up it left a BIG mess and i know you are glad to get old switch board out that seem a night mare for some of mantaice personlles

merci marc

No argument about the utility keeping their museum piece, Dave...one less thing to deal with. They are likely hard up for spares.

On the label, it seems to list “250/500/?10?” for the secondary. Do you know what the “?10?” is?


One comment on the odd terminal layout...it may have allowed for easier {maybe drilled busbar} jumper/strapping for assorted voltages. Note the terminal dissymmetry on the high side too.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 03-15-2003).]

Look at all this Legacy Equipment!!!

Bulldog EXO Disconnect (Vac-U-Break), an old Square D EXO, An old (looks like) FPE EXO, and for jollies, a newer Square D EXO!

Last time I saw Multipole Knife Switches and Non-Deadfront gear was 1982! In the highrise area of Downtown Los Angeles, we were doing another "Active Branch Remodel" on a Great Western Savings branch that was located on the ground floor of an 11 story Building.
Building was near 4th and Hill in Downtown LA.
Must have been built between 1920's and early 1930's.

Had gear that looked exactly like the stuff shown in these images!!!

All Conductors were copper and had the same type R Insulation, all tied down with the cloth weaved thread lacing method. All live stuff exposed. system Voltage: 440 VAC 3Ø 3W.
Scary, but inspiring!

That Transformer should go to the Smithsonian Institute!!! G.E. circa 1902-1908!!! If it was a Westinghouse brand, I would say that Nik Tesla wound the thing himself!!!
Very interesting nameplate data, too!

Even that Transformer under the Disconnects is from the Jurassic Period! What's up with it, did it catch fire and burn other stuff, or did other stuff burn it?

There was a similar old Transformer around here, but a runaway Brontosaurus stepped on it and smashed it flat! Took the smashed Xformer to Mr. Slate's Gravel Quarry/Metal Recycle center and sold it for scrap. Fred Flinstone took most of the money, though!
< >

On the serious side, that looks like one heck of a job just to demo out all the post Triassic equipment!

Good luck!

Scott35

Hi Guys,

Bjarney;

Not a clue! When I asked the POCO transformer guy, he said "Don't know".

Scott35;
The little transformer is still connected and in use until we replace it with the new one. As a matter of fact, the big one is still providing power to the complex through our temp service drop and switchgear.

I'll be willing to bet the POCO won't even touch the big one once we hook-up to the new pole mounted ones with the new service.

We will insist that they remove all load side wiring outside!

Dave

I darkened the contrast on my monitor and that transformer label looks like it says 3250/500/240. The 3 is faint compared to the 250.

guys , correct me if im wrong. like GE says"WE BRING GOOD THINGS TO LIFE."this is one quality transformer. they knew how to build them to last.the short circuit current for a 400 kva! YOUCH!

I suppose if you got them in a good mood you could convince everyone that the indoor transformer lid was a specially-placed "work platform" for the switches?

WebS -- Was the indoor transformer rated 220 to 110/220 for convenience outlets and maybe lighting? It looks sorta' single phase.

Bjarney;

Yes. The indoor xfer was for 240/120 single phase general lighting and appliance loads.

It's kinda spooky working around that thing. It's oil filled. Quiet as a mouse. Weird!

Come to think of it, the bigun is quiet too.

Dave

Good Morning Dave:
Concerning the small transformer, where are its primary connections located? Also, where is the OCPD for it? Is it typical of transformers of this vintage to have secondary connections which appear to consist of short conductor "stubs" coming through porcelain bushings?

This is a fascinating thread you have going here. I enjoy a great many of the threads here at ECN, but particularly this one of late.

Mike (mamills)

mamills,

Thanks for your comments!
The line side is the fused disc. on the bottom right. The other three are fused load side disc.

"short conductor "stubs" coming through porcelain bushings?"

Yes they are!

Dave