ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Recent Posts
240V only in a home and NEC?
by emolatur - 05/18/24 06:12 PM
Electricians revenge
by gfretwell - 05/09/24 08:24 PM
Safety at heights?
by gfretwell - 04/23/24 03:03 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 47 guests, and 25 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
[Linked Image]

The 2002 NEC includes a rule in 300.21 that covers the subject of the "spread of fire or products of combustion for most systems in many occupancies."

This rule also applies to the installation here because of the following rule.

770.3 Locations and Other Articles. Circuits and equipment shall comply with

770.3(A) and (B). Only those sections of Article 300 referenced in this article shall apply to optical fiber cables and raceways.

(A) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. The requirements of 300.21 for electrical installations shall also apply to installations of optical fiber cables and raceways.

The accessible portion of abandoned optical fiber cables shall not be permitted to remain.

Are most installers aware of this requirement?

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 08-01-2002).]

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:

>> 2023 NEC & Related Reference & Exam Prep
2023 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with the Latest NEC & Exam Prep

>> 2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,383
Likes: 7
The Fire Sub-Code official would sure have a red tag for this.
Fire Sub-Code is the Fire Inspector/Fire Marshal here in NJ
And the next person to have a canary would be the Building Inspector, and another red tag...
Life goes on. Now that the UCC (Uniform Construction Code) here requires that those who do communications installations obtain an electrical permit, the EC's don't get hassled for the telco/data problems as in the past.
Used to be"it's wire; I don't care who installed it; I can't do much to the phone guy; you have a permit, and you need the approval; clean it up" (assorted excerpts from various AHJ's, over the years)


Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Any other comments here?

Are installers following Article 770 rules?

Are permits required for this type of installation in your area?

Do you have to be certified or licensed to install these systems?

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,383
Likes: 7
Permits are required for telco/data/comm in commercial/industrial occupancies.
Telco/data contractors are not required to be licensed, although some have an electrical contractor business permit.
The state has/had a movement to license "alarm" contractors, but I am not aware of the outcome.
All aspects of the NEC are enforced regarding telco/data installations.
On jobs that we are doing the electrical install, the "low voltage" guys have to meet the job, and our specs, which includes fire-stop, support, cable routing, and "workmanship". I'm not a "hard nose", but it's in a building WE are working in, and it has to be right, usually the first time.

There are a few "gray" areas regarding audio/video (home theater) wiring in some jurisdictions(residential). I questioned the "need" for a permit for audio/video for a resi job, and was told "phone/data/etc." in resi is not required. (This was with my "inspectors hat on, as we do not do residential construction) Maybe a thread can get started on this.

Hey 66, if you get in on it, it will sure be "big". Seems like every thread you get into, or start goes on fire.
Well, I said enough for now.

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 642
In my area the low voltage -telco, cable, data, security, fire, and home entertainment companies do what they want. If you don't like tough. Fire caulking of thier installs is almost always an source of friction. Unless they are the electrical contractors sub, only an smart and careful general contractor will make them follow code.
In too many areas the inspector has no authority to enforce code on thier work. No permits,licenses or inspections,- Fire alarms are the exception.
Have had both genaral contractors and/or inspetors want the electrical contractor to clean up the install for no pay. Creates a lot of sometimes angry discussions.
Politics and or lack of interest by rule making bodies is the reason this still goes on.
The state inspectors are trying but progress is slow.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233

John, You are correct. The Electrical contractor is not the only one to get in trouble for fire proofing between walls. My fire sub code officials, don't care anymore who installs "what", ( electric cable, data, voice, fiber optic, plumbing, heating pipes, etc.)If there is a violation of the fire rating then the job will fail. This issue is enforced by our fire sub code to make sure that the proper rating ( 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour) fire rating is meeting the code.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,383
Likes: 7
When your Fire Sub-Code does the red sticker, if there are/where no permits taken or required, who does he violate??

If the EC did not install the "violation" and the "installer" was not required to file a permit, is the violation addressed to the Building Permit (framing) inspection??

As I said in the above post, there is a gray area for some residential LV stuff. We can carry this on further between us, or keep this thread going, at your choice

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,723
Likes: 1
Broom Pusher and
Getting some of the Vendors to do anything more than just installing their cables and outlets is a lesson in futility!

The Installation of Fire Calking and Putty Compounds are simply "Not In Their Scope Of Work"!!!

I still get very strange looks from the "Lead Techs" when I ask if they know how to properly penetrate a Fire Rated Corridor.
Same individuals do not understand what the heck is going on with "Those Walls Above The T-Bar Ceiling" [draft/fire curtains] and why they can't just knock a big hole in the drywall.

They know to install Cable with "Plenum Rated" jackets [such as CMP] in "Those" Ceilings, so what gives?

Have seen countless Buildings with Plenum Return Air Ceilings where the old IBM Type 1 cable is CL2. Some of the CAT 3 and CAT 5 is CL2 or CMR.
These are all flavors of Buildings - 1 story through 30 story.

So, in a nutshell, I have dealt with this issue a few times!

Scott S.E.T.

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5