ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Recent Posts
Old Computers?
by gfretwell - 11/21/23 03:45 PM
Simplify MOSFET Test With Source Measure Meter
by gfretwell - 11/18/23 09:20 PM
Ontario Electrical Safety Report
by Admin - 11/02/23 08:56 PM
How are you Jersey folks about the windmills?
by HotLine1 - 11/01/23 07:47 AM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 21 guests, and 28 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#103226 06/07/02 07:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
[Linked Image]

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:

>> 2023 NEC & Related Reference & Exam Prep
2023 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with the Latest NEC & Exam Prep

>> 2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

#103227 06/07/02 08:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 745
Joe (or Steve);
An interesting series of photos. Do y'all know anything about what led to this fire, i.e. history of problems, code violations known to exist, etc.?

The piece of conduit projecting into the top of the box looks suspect, for starters...

Mike (mamills)

#103228 06/07/02 08:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 308
Joe thanks for posting these for me.

The events that took place were as follows.

The homeowner was taking a bath in her newly installed hydromassage tub (without a permit). The power went out in the tub so she went down to the panel to see if a breaker tripped. Because the circuit wasn't labeled she started randomly turning breakers on and off. When this got her nowhere she turn the main off then on. Immediately she heard a buzzing then sparks and fire started.

The other interesting thing that I did not get pictures of was the tree that was burnt where the service drop passed through it.

With the mess inside the panel, my best guess is that the Main breaker malfunctioned. Seeing how the breaker blew apart and the molten metal right on the breaker I have to believe it was the breaker. Even with all the other violations in the panel. I am hoping that what happened is the GFCI under the tub tripped, killing power to the unit, and saved the life of the homeowner. I have not investigated the site personally, I only have my fire department's report. I asked if I could be brought in for further investigation in an obvious electrical fire event. After the fire is out of course.

#103229 08/29/02 10:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 53
This looks like a scenario our company avoided a few years ago, lucky us!

Addition to house, bed/office, and bathroom. Bathroom had all the little extras though, 2 heater/fan goodies, a couple of towel dryers, some nice big strip lights, a couple of cans all over the place, and the new central exhaust fan system for the skylight areas and close to the showers, we remodeled the other baths for some better venting.

OOOOOOPSIE, I forgot the laundry was added in the niche nearby, just a 20A 120V circuit.

House had an existing sub in before we arrived,main breaker a 150A, sub fed with a 100A. It did not appear that the panels were overloaded. They were about 20 years old. We had space in the sub to get our wires landed, AHJ was told to take a peek and see if he felt a full service upgrade was necessary to one new 200A service to avoid all doubt.

Well its about 5:30 when I show up with the last couple of light bulbs to finish, turn all the new goodies on for testing, all devices test fine, get back to the panel area and it starts to have a funny sort of plastic odor building up. Then we hear a little arc type noise from the main panel, hit the main breaker, pop the cover off both panels,take a look with a flashlight, can't quite tell where the meltdown is occuring. So, back on goes the main, a few seconds later we see smoke and a red glow happening under the main breaker, the meltdown is moving right through the bottom of main, all plastic in the area right for the back of the panel enclosure, the main has been off at this point again for a little bit, and it is still glowing quite well.

Now I have to do a beeline to the UG meter socket, not a disconnecting one either, basement back area of house, out the front door to the back corner of the house knowing this thing is still melting down until the meter is yanked. Hope she don't blow! Made it time to avoid iminent failure in a big way.

Anyone for a service swap at 6:30pm on a friday night?????????? Well the homeowner got a new 200A service installed by 1:00am.

So, all of that wind I used is to say that the main was in sad shape from the years of use, it didn't fail by just not holding, it decided to meltdown, and was going to take the panel and anything else in its path until the meter blew, or the TX.

We took amp readings to see if we could detect an issue of the first original panel and sub, all was within the breaker ratings.

And yes they had a spare Pampers for me!

#103230 10/02/02 07:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Steve T

Any update yet? New pictures?

Great story from NonLinearLoad

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
#103231 10/04/02 07:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
right on NLL.

i had a ('bacon frying in my panel') service call not long ago...

some folks just gotta tie thier mutt to the service entrance cable.....

then the ice melts on into the mains... [Linked Image]

#103232 05/16/04 07:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
#103233 05/18/04 11:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,438
It almost seems to me that something was turned off before the homeowner went down to attempt to get her tub back on... Was there a circuit in the panel that went to something that wasnt there anymore, & someone didn't cap the lines off, or capped them together? Something similar , but not of this magnitude, happened at a neighbors down the street... He tripped a circuit in his Pushmatic panel.. He went to the panel to restore & most of us here know that the on/off indicator on these breakers is useless.. So, he started pushing breakers all over... One that he reset was a 50A 2P that went to a former spa, the wires were all taped together.... about 5 minutes later, he called me after he'd called the fire dept.. His busbars were glowing & smoke coming from the panel...
In this case, the main (100A) & the 50A failed to trip. Luckily, the fire dept cut the drip loops while the house was still standing!


#103234 05/18/04 05:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,143
Originally posted by Lostazhell:
Luckily, the fire dept cut the drip loops while the house was still standing!

WHA? Cut the loops?

Our chiefs around here stopped us from pulling meters a couple of years ago, after one of our guys got sprayed with molten Al due to a fault-to-ground (and some other incidents)

Your guys (still) have some stones! I might be able to get away with that, but only 'cuz of my EC standing. They won't let regular "blue shirt" FF's get anywhere near that...

#103235 05/21/04 11:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,438
This was quite a few years ago, (probably around 10), so I have no idea if this has changed or not as far as their policy... One thing I do remember, they had a pair of, what looked like bolt-cutters, with fiberglass handles about 5' long! snip-spark, snip-spark, snip... that was it!


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

Tools for Electricians
Tools for Electricians

* * * * * * *
2023 National Electrical Code (NEC)
2023 NEC + Exam Prep Study Guides Now Available!
* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman


Member Spotlight
Attic Rat
Attic Rat
Bergen Co.,N.J. USA
Posts: 524
Joined: December 2003
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 1
Popular Topics(Views)
313,186 Are you busy
239,129 Re: Forum
222,897 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5