ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Violation Photo Forum Overcrowded Box!

This mess was discovered in an
entertainment sound and lighting shop located in North Carolina.

Well, at least they wrote a disclaimer about the black, red and blue wires being 277.

They forgot to write: "This box is messy and over crowded and contains code violations"

Is 120 and 277 mixed in this box?

Where's the problem? A simple calculation reveals---
1) There are (3) 1/2" KOs. on each side of the box
2) There are 4 sides
3) That makes (12) 1/2" KOs
4) 1/2" thinwall is good for (9) #12 THWN
5) 9 x 12 = 108 #12s allowed in that box
6) I think there's room for 80 more.

They should have used smaller wirenuts!

PLEASE! CAN'T I PUT JUST 2 MORE WIRES IN THERE!

Hmmm, is it ok to put his 277v lighting in with what I'm assuming may be 120v circuits? At least they are warning the next guy. And hopefully he used 12 solid to cut them short, just so they would fit a little better.
12 stranded seems much easier to get into boxes in general, yet to be a packer of sorts, and forget the extension ring at the shop doesn't help either.
Jay

hmmm. Well, lets just hope there's atleast power going through that. I would rip all that out and make it more organized. I cant stand disorganization!!!

Non Linear Load.
200.6 D states:
"Where conductors of different systems are installed in the same raceway, cable, box, auxiliary gutter, or other type of enclosure, one system grounded conductor, if required, shall have an outer covering conforming to 200.6(A) or 200.6(B). Each other system grounded conductor shall have an outer covering of white with a readily distinguishable, different colored stripe other than green running along the insulation, or shall have other and different means of identification as allowed by 200.6(A) or (B) that will distinguish each system grounded conductor." NEC 2002
I wonder which was the neutral, Black, red or blue?

LOL at Redsy!!
It seems way too many so called electricians calculate box fill by that very method.
Yup, I'm tellin you boys they woodint uv give us all them thar knockouts ifn they didnt wan us a usin em!!

Messy or not... wouldn't a simple extension ring address the box fill issue?

You could stack 3 or 4 extension rings on the box "lego style".

Use of an extension ring(s) may solve this problem, but the NEC requires that all of the conductors in the box must be capable of extending from the edge of the last ring too at least 3 inches outside, and no splices are allowed.

See 300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junctions, and Switch Points.

Attic Overcrowding of Boxes!



Look Here for More Stuff: Wall of Shame!
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=21

I would like to see the inside of that one but I would be afraid to loosen the cover screws.

Shoulda written the following on that box lid:

"WARNING! CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE!"

yeah how did they get all of them wires in there. should be a warning that says "open at your own risk".LOL!

I followed that link. Mostly HVAC stuff but there are some real interesting pics. One of a heavy feeder bunged to copper pipe to fit the lugs.

That is not an issue, those are the heating boxes for the attic.

Really, how does someone even begin to think that this installation is remotely okay. Because this is so blatant, I would think this person bids low and only is concerned with the bottom line. I would also bet this person is the first to cry fowl when he has some poor job thrown his way. This is idiotic and gives our industry a black eye.

The question begs - as a legimate contractor do you tell the customer this needs to be fixed?

Pierre

Hey, that box isn't full, there are still knockouts that aren't used!

i thought it was 6 inches free conductor? conductors of different systems are allowed in the same box as long as there are no devices in that box. unfortunately, i know of no code which differentiates between 120 and 277v colors, a good electrician uses boy colors, brown orange yellow and grey for the neutral.

Rizer,

Try 300.14. States 6" but makes the stipulation that if the opening to an outlet, junction, or switch popint is less than 200mm ( 8 in. ) in any direction, each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least 75mm ( 3 in ) outside the opening.

This is from the 2002 code by the way. Also in Wichita, KS. the city code (which most electricians have never even seen) does state Bk/Rd/Bl and B/O/Y color coding for 120/208 and 277/480 volt systems respectively. As far as the 120 anad 277 in the same box 300.3 (C)(1) covers that

271Sparky

Who wants to bet that all the conductors in the 2nd pic are attemptedly stuffed in red wirenuts :P (Bonus points if they held the wirenut on with duct tape!) ....

I counted a minimum of twelve - 14/2's or 12/2's entering that box..(with the real possibility of a couple 12/3's) 36 wires in a 4S shallow!

Sven wrote

I wonder how big of a "C" clamp they used to get the blank on in the first place!

-Randy

That is why the supply house was out of wire nuts!

The guy writes his own description of at least one of the violations on the cover. He knew black,red,blue is not typically use for 277v so he wrote a friendly disclaimer.

As for that attic box, that is absolutley incredible

Black/red/blue might be typically used for 120/208 rather than 277/480, but I don't think such use actually violates any article of the NEC.

As for the pic', I saw it a while back, and thought those were instructions for someone else to finish the job. Finish it they did, they over did it!

And, Pauluk, I believe you are correct. The only phase color in the NEC is orange. But most places will ammend, and mandate their own color codes. For instance here in San Francisco, we have purple high legs. And, I can't imagine the thought process behind it.

See the NEC Index [Color Code] for some mandatory color code rules:

Branch circuits, 210.4(D), 210.5

Conductors, 310.12, 504.80(C), 647.4(C)

Grounded conductor, 200.6

Grounding conductor, 250.119, 310.12(B), 400.23

Heating cables, 424.35

Higher voltage to ground Feeders, 215.8

Panelboards, 408.3(E)

Sensitive electronic equipment, 647.4(C)

Service-entrance conductors, 230.56

Missing: 110.15

210.4(D):
Ah... I guess that covers it. So this would be a violation of 210.4(D) unless black/red/blue was used consistently throughout the building for 277 and some other colors used for 120.

And I would imagine that a scribbled note on the box cover doesn't count as "other approved means," especially as it's unlikely to be repeated at the panelboard.

As a matter of interest, what methods are considered acceptable othan the color-coded insulation, colored phase tape, or tags with appropriate legends on them?

In addition to the overfill issue, the NM isnt supported within 12 inches of the box. I don't even know if it would be possible to fit that many wires on a 2x4...

Joe, you got me there with 504.80(C), 647.4(C)! I just learned something! I like when that happens. (Seriously)

Grounds, neutrals, and high legs, those are all locked down. The light blue in 504.80, is a new one to me! And the heating cables, that's for the sheath of the cable for system identification, right?

The other ones you mentioned about phase arrangment, (ABC) and system/voltage identifcation, don't mention black, red, blue, or brown, orange yellow. We just know them to be that, as accepted pratice. I think it would be nice for the powers that be, to just come out and say it!

Now, I'm not trying to start trouble. But switch legs, and travellers, shouldn't they be identified to the phase they're on? Futher still, I'm sure the count on fill, but do they count on derating?

I realize the use of black,red,blue for 277v does not nessecarly violate any code,but if 120v is already in the box and identified as black,red,blue, then using black,red,blue for 277v would be a violation

Randy said that, "I wonder how big of a "C" clamp they used to get the blank on in the first place!" In the first picture it sure does look like they did! See the hole in the wall underneath the box???

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 09-01-2004).]