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Re: Furnace Wiring #101143 02/13/07 02:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,121
HotLine1 Offline
Member
Here in NJ, I have not seen any furnaces cord & plug connected. All are hard wired.

400.8 would be cited
John

PS, didn't we have this debate previously? I seem to remember another thread.


John
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Furnace Wiring #101144 02/14/07 09:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,498
G
George Little Offline OP
Member
I realize that 400.7 Uses Permitted is not all inclusive but item 400.7(8) does talk about appliances connected via cord and cap and there are conditions for that type of connection but the furnaces I see don't meet the requirements listed here.


George Little
Re: Furnace Wiring #101145 02/14/07 11:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 840
C
CTwireman Offline
Member
I saw a cord-connected boiler for the first time a few winters ago, which as the others have said is unheard of here. It was a Viessmann, and the EC or plumber who wired it simply put an outlet box on the ceiling and plugged it in (the boiler is wall mount.) I'm guessing all the Viessmann boilers come this way???


Peter


Peter
Re: Furnace Wiring #101146 02/14/07 01:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,408
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
They use cord and plug to facilitate the use of a portable generator. My ex had her furnace (blower) rewired that way.
In that regard it is probably safer than the alternatives homeowners come up with like back feeding dryer receptacles.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Furnace Wiring #101147 02/14/07 04:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 840
C
CTwireman Offline
Member
Ok, I know that it's a code violation. But, given other cord and plug connected appliances, where is the danger? Think DW's, disposals, microwaves, etc as well as the hundreds of thousands of furnaces that are cord and plug connected in the Western states. I just don't see the hazard.

Peter


Peter
Re: Furnace Wiring #101148 02/15/07 09:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 345
T
tdhorne Offline
Member
gfretwell Wrote:
Quote
They use cord and plug to facilitate the use of a portable generator. My ex had her furnace (blower) rewired that way.
In that regard it is probably safer than the alternatives homeowners come up with like back feeding dryer receptacles.

I had to bail a homeowner out of a dispute between his heating contractor and the electrical inspector. I have been doing electrical work for thirty five years and only found it worth arguing with an electrical inspector five times at the most. When in doubt comply! The heating contractor had promised to make the new furnace capable of being powered by a generator but the electrical inspector was not willing to allow the cord and plug connection. As a previous poster pointed out the duct work and the gas piping argue pretty convincingly against the unit being suitable for frequent interchange or servicing. I asked the inspector if the cloth vibration section had an hand locking collar and the gas had a off appliance union would he allow the cord and plug. He obviously didn't like it but he said he would sign off. The cost of the changes were rather high though and the heating contractor didn't want to eat the parts and work. I offered to set up a recreational vehicle single pole transfer switch and a flanged inlet in a raised cover of a deep, 4&11/16ths square, (11B) box. Everyone was a lot happier and I picked up a two hour minimum service call out of the deal.

I really do understand the good faith difference of opinion on 400.8 but like other posters I don't understand why it is important. I don't see the compelling state interest in forbidding the use of cord and plug connections on these and similar appliances when the obvious reason to do so is to reduce the need for coordination between the trades involved. It just shouldn't take two visits to provide the power for a plumbing or mechanical job. The insurance companies that write insurance for the crafts very carefully exclude insuring any work beyond the individual crafts license. A plumbing or mechanical contractor that allows their mechanics to perform any work for which the firm and the mechanic are not both appropriately licensed is leaning his head way out after passing out machetes.

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 02-15-2007).]


Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use" Thomas Alva Edison
Re: Furnace Wiring #101149 02/15/07 09:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 345
T
tdhorne Offline
Member
Quote
renosteinke
Moderator posted 02-13-2007 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for renosteinke Click Here to Email renosteinke Edit/Delete Message No, such a heat pump would not be wired using a cord and cap.

The justifications for using cords here are a) the need to service the equipment;
b) the desire to have a receptacle available to the serviceman; and,
c) 430.109(F) recognizes that motors might be cord and plug connected, without making any restrictions as to the conditions under which this may be done.

That last reference, to 430.109(F), is not as clear as it once was. Prior editions to the code clearly stated that such "shall be permitted." The closing reference to portable motors "under 1/3 hp" not needing a horsepower rated rated plug has been the basis for limiting application of the cord & plug as a disconnecting means has been used to justify limiting this method to small motors in practice.

So, out West, one will often find fixed appliances hooked up using cord & plug, especially when the appliance can be served by an 'ordinary' 120v/15a receptacle. We will use pigtails on dishwashers, disposals, trash compactors, air cleaners, air conditioning condensers, circulation pumps, and all manner of things that "back East" might be hard-wired.

Taking the word-wrangling out of the discussion, I like the cord connection mainly because it provides a simple and sure means of disconnecting what you're working on. No more hunting for breakers! It also recognizes that the 'other trade' is not likely to be there at the same time as I; I can provide the receptacle, and he can put in his stuff.

That said, even I have some issues with this cord & plug connected furnace:


IP: Logged


So do I but I have to ask. (Anyone know what the emoticon is for tung in cheek) Was it the unclosed KO, the plaster ring used in place of a raised cover, the plaster ring being in its gravity assisted loosening position, the use of an inappropriate plate, or the receptacle being mounted on the appliance it is supposed to permit the servicing of that you object to.

Lets not stop there what else did I fail to spot.

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 02-15-2007).]


Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use" Thomas Alva Edison
Re: Furnace Wiring #101150 02/15/07 09:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,408
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
To avoid any confusion I will point out that dishwasters, disposals and trash compactors are specifically allowed to be C&P by 422.16(B). Perhaps we should add furnace blowers


Greg Fretwell
Re: Furnace Wiring #101151 02/15/07 09:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member
tdhorne, it is a bit hard to tell ... maybe this second pic will better show the receptacle installation:


[Linked Image]


I suspect that this is a replacement furnace - and that the wall had to be removed to remove the earlier furnace.

Re: Furnace Wiring #101152 02/15/07 10:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,498
G
George Little Offline OP
Member
I wish this pictured job was in my area I would have a hayday with violations. What a classic example of pig work. So much for providing a receptacle for furnace connections.


George Little
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