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#101067 02/08/07 08:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,313
Likes: 7
Member
Gentlemen:
I have to say this:
As an AHJ (NJ) it is my responsibility to do Plan Review and Permit Approvals, and sign off on plans and the permit applications.

It is my State Licences that I execute on each and every 'job' that I sign off on Plan Review. Licences that I worked very hard to get, BTW.

The purpose of Plan Review is to basically do a 'double check' for NEC compliance. In addition, we also are obligated to enforce the EE/PE/AIA's 'spec' if and when it is above and beyond the NEC.

Yes, we are all human, and humans do commit errors, both AHJ's and PE/EE/AIA's. NJ has a law that all work in comm jobs be signed/sealed by an EE/PE/AIA, so we are not 'anti-engineer'

Plans conform to the NEC, they get approvals, plans do not conform to the NEC, they get a rejection. Courtesy phone call, then, if no reply, a formal Notice of Denial.

So, based on the above, I say NO, the Seal/Signature does not get the stamp of approval.

John


John
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#101068 02/09/07 06:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 650
W
Member
There are certain features of the code that specifically admit the use of 'engineering supervision'.

Relevant to the present discussion: 310.15(C)

Given that some parts of the code admit of 'engineering supervision' and other parts do not, it seems pretty clear an engineer's stamp is not a blank check to go around code requirements, unless the government authority which adopts the code provides this exception.

-Jon

#101069 02/10/07 07:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 680
W
Member
Wouldn't a PE design use accepted practices?? The PE is one who would be liable if the design failed. I believe in MAine a PE can overrule(override) the NEC but not sure where I'd find a link to prove it. I believe its done quite often in Paper Mills?? Probably PoCos also?.

#101070 02/10/07 07:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Quote
I believe in MAine a PE can overrule(override) the NEC but not sure where I'd find a link to prove it.

I would be intrested to see it.

Quote
I believe its done quite often in Paper Mills??

I am not sure they supposed to 'override' the NEC but they may well be their own AHJ.

Quote
Probably PoCos also?.

The NEC does not apply at all to power company distribution systems.

If the power company builds a new office building for themselves that office building will have to conform to the NEC.

Take a quick look at 90.2(A) and 90.2(B). [Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-10-2007).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#101071 02/10/07 08:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
P
Member
The PE stamp does not permit one to "overrule"the NEC. It does permit a PE to provide an alternate method that may be equivalent or more strict than the NEC.

I also am an inspector, and there are many times that prints have to be adjusted and thus may not make it past us. That is when we have discussions with the PE so they can make the corrections and then the prints are submitted.


Pierre Belarge
#101072 02/10/07 08:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 680
W
Member
iwire
I believe you are correct in that paper mills perform AHJ duties. I don't believe the state inspectors go into the mills.

This is all anecdotal from stuff I've heard over the years. I was always under the impression that a PE could do as he wanted but it was his butt on the line. Never seen it in practice.

#101073 02/10/07 08:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
G
Member
electure ---

I have posted substantiation in the thread about the number of conductors in a conduit. But I will continue here also.

---

I would expect that the moderators and those who claim to be inspectors would have read the local laws that adopt the building codes.

Usually the process is that a national building code is adopted and that building code includes reference to the NEC.

All national building codes allow engineering. That includes engineering of the electrials.

The national building codes and the NEC are prescriptions. That is, based on general assumptions general engineering solutions have been produced and reduced to the tables and text of the codes and the NEC.

The engineering allowed by the national building codes and by included reference by the NEC consists of project specific assumptions and produces project specific engineering solution.

In general, an engineered solution will not "meet" the NEC. It will not "meet" the NEC because the design assumptions more accurately reflect the needs.

---

I suggest that those of you who hold a differing opinion consult your attornies before you reject an engineer's work.

#101074 02/10/07 08:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
George I suggest you find some real references or admit your mistaken.

Here we do not use a national building code.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#101075 02/10/07 09:34 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
R
Member
George, we're still waiting.

It's apparent that you have gotten in over your head and simply can not back up your statements can you?

Telling us to contact an attorney is not substantiation to your claims.

Roger

#101076 02/10/07 10:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,507
G
Member
George- I have no problem approving your plans when they meet or exceed the minimum requirements of the NFPA standards, it's when they don't that I, not unlike any other inspector or plan review department would reject your plans. I don't know where are you from because you've chosen to be silent with respects to your location but I'd be surprised if what you are indeed claiming is accurate. Your creditability would be increased if we knew your background. Chances are you are a newbie in the electrical field and don't know your role in relation to the rest of the industry.



[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 02-10-2007).]


George Little
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