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#99021 - 07/10/06 07:55 PM to GFIor not to is the question
watersparkfalls Offline
Member
Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 212
Loc: Washington...Not DC
i always install GFI outlets for construction trades in the houses i wire.
but at the house across the street(snooping on my competition)they use regular outlets is this legal or should they be gfi?
i have heard that when permanant power is hooked up you dont need to be GFI protected but dont know if this is a wives tale.

thanks,
h20
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#99022 - 07/10/06 08:03 PM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
bot540 Offline
Member
Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 174
Loc: Vernon Hills, IL
Read 590.6. Thius answers your question yes. This is also required by OSHA.
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#99023 - 07/10/06 08:22 PM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
JoeTestingEngr Offline
Member
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 781
Loc: Chicago, Il.
Is it possible that they installed a GFCB in the panel to feed the normal outlets that you saw?
Joe
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#99024 - 07/10/06 08:57 PM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
gfretwell Offline


Member
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9038
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
My wife's houses have the panel in the garage. They set the panel and put in the garage receptacle very early in the process, pretty much as soon as the roof is black and the trades run cords from there. That will be GFCI anyway.
Prior to that they either steal power from the house next door ... Hopefully not a closed house ;-)
Otherwise it is generators.
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#99025 - 07/11/06 02:43 AM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Both the NEC and OSHA require GFCI protection for construction personal.

However each trade is responsible for their own actions.

If the carpenter plugs into a regular receptacle it will be a fine against that carpenters company.

OSHA rules put the burden on each sub contractor to provide their own GFCI protection. They can use GFCI cord sets.

The way we do it is this, at the beginning we provide GFCI protected temporary as per contract.

As the job wraps up we remove those and fire up some permanent circuits.

At the same time we post papers and send letters to the GC explaining and referencing the OSHA standards and that it will be up to each trade to protect themselves.

I can post some OSHA interpretations if anyone is interested.
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#99026 - 07/11/06 07:15 AM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5316
Loc: Blue Collar Country
I'm not so sure that a GFI is ALWAYS required for ALL construction.

Imagine this situation: The house is closed in, with a panel mounted in the mechanical room. A short piece of pipe exits the panel, to a stud-mounted box with an "industrial" or "exposed" type cover.
This install could very well be part of the permanent structure, and not temporary at all. The construction crews are simply using an existing receptacle.

As I see it, this install, in a place that might have exposed studs when finished, would beat the GFI requirement.

But- fine rules aside- I reccomend the use of a GFI. Heck, the additional cost is maybe $10. When you consider all the faulting pipe threaders, saws-it-alls, scissor lifts, etc., that I've discovered with a GFI, it's a smart move.
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#99027 - 07/11/06 05:11 PM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
John

Quote:
Imagine this situation: The house is closed in, with a panel mounted in the mechanical room. A short piece of pipe exits the panel, to a stud-mounted box with an "industrial" or "exposed" type cover.
This install could very well be part of the permanent structure, and not temporary at all. The construction crews are simply using an existing receptacle.


That can happen and does happen.

However each contractor plugging into that outlet is required by OSHA to have GFCI protection. The use a GFCI cord set is a work around.

If caught breaking this rule the fine will be against the offending persons employer.

It will not (or should not ) be against the EC for installing an outlet that is part of the permanent wiring.


BTW that rule applies to us ECs as well, if we plug an extension cord into that non GFCI outlet we have to use a GFCI cord set.

Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-11-2006).]
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#99028 - 07/12/06 08:14 AM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
earlydean Offline
Member
Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 751
Loc: Griswold, CT, USA
Section 590.6(A) has all the details. The 2005 NEC also requires this protection.
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Earl
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#99029 - 07/12/06 10:40 AM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
gfretwell Offline


Member
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9038
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
490 really refers to temporary installations I think Reno might be referring to permanent building wiring that gets used in later stages of construction. How about the carpet installer who plugs his seaming iron into a general lighting receptacle? I have never seen them use a GFCI adapter.
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#99030 - 07/12/06 04:43 PM Re: to GFIor not to is the question
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote:
How about the carpet installer who plugs his seaming iron into a general lighting receptacle? I have never seen them use a GFCI adapter.


IMO OSHA requires them have GFCI protection.

That said OSHA standards are generally ignored by small contractors and if it it is a one person owner operator shop OSHA does not apply`
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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