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#98514 - 12/25/04 06:25 AM What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Please see the Contents in the 2005 NE

Question: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?

Edited to remove the list.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 12-29-2004).]
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#98515 - 12/25/04 01:48 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
Joe,
What purpose is served by posting the table of contents for the 2005 NEC?
Don
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#98516 - 12/25/04 02:01 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Don:

So that snyone who may be interested could discuss, and pick out:

"What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?"

The code should cover the "installation and use" of electrical equipment.

Get It Now!!

PS: Many members may appreciate the effort I made so that they could use this as a fast finder if they wanted!

I continue to contribute to this forum, and I don't ask people why they reply.

I also continue to receive lots of messages that want me to post their images and stories in the violations forum.

JT
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#98517 - 12/25/04 05:18 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
Joe,
 Quote:
Get It Now!!

No, I don't. We all have code books and know how to read. The table of contents does not have any specifics to let anyone respond to your question. The specific items are found in the code text itself.
In my opinion, a large part of what is covered in Article 422 is outside the scope of the code. Actual product design should be left up to the product standards and has no place in a construction code.
Don
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#98518 - 12/25/04 05:46 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Don: Go ahead and delete the contents in my message and think about a proposal for the following.

90.2 Scope.
(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation and use of electrical
conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and
communications conductors, appliances equipment, and raceways; and
optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:

(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures,
mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating
buildings

(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations

FPN to (2): For additional information concerning such installations
in an industrial or multibuilding complex, see ANSI
C2-2002, National Electrical Safety Code.

(3) Installation and use of conductors and equipment that connect
to the supply of electricity

(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office
buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and
recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a
generating plant, substation, or control center.
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#98519 - 12/25/04 05:54 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
Joe,
How can we expand the scope to cover the use and things like appliances that the inspector will never see? If it happens after the final inspection, what method would be used for enforcement? I agree that there are often problems caused by the use and misuse of things that are not "installed". I just don't see how we can cover them in the NEC.
Don
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Don(resqcapt19)

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#98520 - 12/25/04 06:35 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Don:

I agree, but believe that the current makeup and membership of the NFPA NEC Committees would not agree with deleting the subject of appliances, etc.

What about Articles 280 and 285, they are not required, and if they are installed then they will be inspected.

I am sure that the number of appliances, such as electric ranges, installed in the USA are many, and there are probably millions with 30 ampere cords, and many without the right connector, and some with pennies behind the old Edison base 30 ampere fuse under the right rear burner.

I really think that the 70E document is a step in the right direction, and can be expanded upon to become the inspectors tool.

What if we researched the entire NFC and especially 70B and 70E with the thought of installations only and an appliance code?
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#98521 - 12/26/04 06:04 PM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
Joe,
I still think that the appliance type equipment has to be addressed in the product standards. These items are not in place at the time of the electrical final and the inspector has no legal right to come back into the building after the final without the owners permission or a search warrent.
In many areas the other fire codes are not adopted by the local or state governments and therefore are not enforcable.
Don
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#98522 - 12/28/04 06:05 AM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
CharlieE Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 204
Loc: Indianapolis
Don, a gas furnace is called an appliance and so is a water heater.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis, Utility Power Guy
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Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy

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#98523 - 12/28/04 08:32 AM Re: What items here are not "installed"? What would you call "Inspect-able"?
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
Charlie,
Yes, they are appliances and their construction is covered by product standards not the NEC. I can understand the NEC rules that tells us how to supply power to these appliances, but not those that tell how to use or construct portable appliances. I guess I should say that the use and construction of non-permanently installed appliances should not be in the code. An example is the new rule requiring vending machine cords to have built-in GFCI protection. This rule has no business being in the NEC. It belongs in a product standard. The code seems to be expanding the rules in this area, and it is my opinion that such rules are not within the scope of the NEC. I think that the following rules in Article 422 (2002 NEC) are not within the scope statement shown in 90.2 and should be removed from the NEC: 422.4, and 422.40 though 422.50. I’m not sure how you can apply 422.10 and .11 to portable appliances that are not present at the time of design or inspection.
Don
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