ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 17
Recent Posts
Old decora style outlets
by Admin. 03/25/17 11:40 AM
ESA Arc flash course
by TheShockDoctors. 03/24/17 10:15 AM
fuse rejectors
by HotLine1. 03/24/17 07:53 AM
Another Forum Update
by Admin. 03/22/17 03:04 PM
Dining room plugs
by watersparkfalls. 03/21/17 10:31 PM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
231,488 Are you busy
166,198 Re: Forum
160,649 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 39 guests, and 13 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#98373 - 10/26/04 10:52 PM GFCI changes  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
Residential change:

Item (7) revised to read:
Quote
Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks-where the receptacles are installed within 6' of the outside edge of the sink.



Commercial changes: Items (2) which was previously item (3) revised to read:
Quote
Commercial and institutional kitchens-for the purpose of this section, a kitchen is an area with a sink and permanant facilities for food preperation and cooking.


New item (4) reads:
Quote
Outdoors in public spaces-for the purpose of this section a public space is defined as any space that is for use by, or is accessible to, the public


New item (5) reads:
Quote
Outdoors, where installed to comply with 210.63


So, regarding the residential change, two things come to my mind...
1: What about the washing machine in the laundry that is within 6' of the sink, and
2: The 2002 addressed the countertop receptacles for wet bar sinks. Now it just says within 6'. What about a cord and plug connected garbage disposal under the sink?

[This message has been edited by Ryan_J (edited 10-27-2004).]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#98374 - 10/27/04 12:52 PM Re: GFCI changes  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Ryan,

Great question.
Quote
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
.
.
.

(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks -- where the receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink


If my laundry equipment is plugged into a receptacle within 6' of the utility sink, then it seems that the machines must be GFIed. There are no exceptions related to (7) that I could find.


Al Hildenbrand

#98375 - 10/27/04 01:18 PM Re: GFCI changes  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
I'm sitting here still thinking about this. . .

It seems that the requirement becomes a volume of space that is covered by the GFI. That is, a sink "GFI zone", for a sink mounted in a 3' high counter, will include an area of the 8' high ceiling above the sink, as well as the clock outlet on the wall above the sink.

And, if the sink is mounted against a "half wall" partition separating a single area into a kitchen and eating area, the receptacles within 6' on the eating area side of the partition should also be GFIed.


Al Hildenbrand

#98376 - 10/27/04 06:13 PM Re: GFCI changes  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
And I can think of a lot of small kitchen layouts that, based on how I read this, will now be required to have GFI protection on the refir and gas range receptacles.


Al Hildenbrand

#98377 - 10/27/04 06:17 PM Re: GFCI changes  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Is a kitchen sink a wet bar sink?


Al Hildenbrand

#98378 - 10/27/04 06:31 PM Re: GFCI changes  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
No, but I'm not sure what a kitchen is anymore :-P

I would say no, since they each have their own seperate GFCI provisions in 210.8(A). Kitchens require the counter receptacles, wet bars require all within 6'...

Although....there is a mistake in the 2005 that defines kitchen for 210.8(A). It is found it 210.8(B)(2), which says for the purpose of this section, a kitchen is.... According to the NEC style manual, this definition applies to everything in 210.8, since that is the code section. 210.8(B)(2) is a subsection. So, in my opinion, a residential kitchen is an area with a sink and permanant facilities for food preperation and cooking. [Linked Image]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#98379 - 10/28/04 09:59 PM Re: GFCI changes  
John Steinke  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 518
Reno,Nv., USA
Perhaps we can compare this to GFCI rules for garages- where an exception exists for dedicated receptacles (such as for a refrigerator or freezer).


#98380 - 10/28/04 10:24 PM Re: GFCI changes  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
John...I wouldn't allow it. There is no exception for this, and until there is I can't allow an alternate method, because 90.4 says that there must be equal protection for an altarnate. There is no equal to GFCI, in my opinion.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#98381 - 10/29/04 11:00 AM Re: GFCI changes  
mustangelectric  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
Bentonville, AR
hi,
I did not think dedicated equipment like a washing machine or freezer has to be gfi protected?

-regards

Mustang


Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

#98382 - 10/29/04 12:33 PM Re: GFCI changes  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
Mustang: There are no exceptions to this rule. [Linked Image]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Member Spotlight
mersadrad
mersadrad
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 28
Joined: March 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.025s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8170 MB (Peak: 0.9902 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-03-26 11:05:15 UTC