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#978 - 04/12/01 12:04 PM New receptacle/old home.
Redsy Offline
Member
Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
While we are comparing local practices, I have another subject.
In doing some real-estate transaction work, I have been asked to install receptacles(GFCI-type) in bathrooms of older homes where there is no receptacle at all. This is to satisfy township use & occupancy requirements. The (twp.) AHJ says to grab power from the vanity fixture outlet box. After doing this twice, I began to wonder about the wisdom of not having installed the required (210-11 c 3)separate bath ckt. Obviously, in most cases, the cost to the seller would be significantly higher. Most of these homes are over 40-50 yrs old, anyway, and don't have small appliance or laundy cicuits, either so I dont know if it's worth suggesting running a new bath ckt. Thoughts?
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#979 - 04/12/01 01:16 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
wayne Offline
Member
Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 55
Loc: NC
Redsy I understand where you are comming from. I personally would install a new branch cir as required. Prior to the code change for the new bath cir, when I priced a service change I would upgrade 4/w range,dryer ect and bring everthing up to code.Most would only change panel only, and according to adj that is all we would have to do. But on the other hand use empirical judgement.And according to the Current Code.I know most people are concern with the cost,We are concerned with the safety as well as abiding by the code. Which is a set of principles that we All Electricans should or must follow to promote safety to everyone.
Wayne
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#980 - 04/12/01 02:02 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
Mike Offline
Member
Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 65
Here in Warrshington state, I would bet dollars to donuts that the AHJ would require installing a dedicated circuit for the bathroom GFCI. Our AHJs can be hard-nosed at times.
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#981 - 04/16/01 07:45 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
Steve T Offline
Member
Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 312
Loc: Oak Park, IL, USA
I say tear down the house and rebuild it because a lot of things with building, plumbing, and mechanical are not up to code either.

But seriously, where do you draw the line?

If the receptacle is not there and there is no neutral available at the switch, I think the AHJ's are requiring too much work for an existing situation.
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#982 - 04/16/01 09:32 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
Bill Addiss Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 4196
Loc: NY, USA
Redsy,

I too would always try to do it right and install a new circuit. Some people though cannot see the value in this. Local AHJs have said it's OK to install a GFCI receptacle as an extension to existing. I figure that it is still an improvement over the person plugging into the fixture over the vanity, at least it will be GFCI protected.

Bill
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#983 - 04/17/01 07:00 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
SlamTex Offline
Member
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 53
I think that I will "chime" with the others, and install the new circuit. With the problems of curling irons, and hair dryers tripping circuits, you can "kill two birds with one stone."

HMEL 688
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#984 - 04/18/01 04:31 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
zapped1012 Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 6
Loc: honesdale,pa
INSTALL A NEW CIRCUIT. I WOULD SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT, ESPECIALLY IN A OLDER HOUSE.
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#985 - 04/18/01 06:39 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
I see a lot of bias when it comes down to whom is hired by whom in this situation. Is it the realtors sparky?, the buyers?

I see NFPA 73 used to define the 'line' , not by NEC, but fire AHJ's.

This is for big no-no's
-no receptacles in a room
-no cover plates
-extension cords under carpets
-open JB's or no KO seals
-loose or unsecured wiring
(basically the photo violations section)



So the next obvious Q is how to prioritize repairs, etc. when asked to comment on older maintenace-challenged dwellings over and above this.


-GFI's
-Smokes
-proper GEC & bonding
-proper Service size ( really no sense in growing branches if the trunks rotted!)
-Dedicated appliances
-Dedicated circuits ( kit, bath , etc)
-Possible AFCI's to those K&T circuits
bettween floors
-Split up & derate older circuits above
- reterminate & pigtail all old to new devices
-replace old & worn fixtures
-Home runs as far as possible, any future renovation to continue the circuit.


This is very generic, so don't flame it apart! I tell customers that this is how i would proceed if i were to move in!

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#986 - 04/18/01 07:25 PM Re: New receptacle/old home.
zapped1012 Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 6
Loc: honesdale,pa
SPARKY,AS YOU KNOW REALTORS WANT WORK DONE AS CHEAP AS POSSIBLE, JUST TO MAKE IT LOOK GOOD, FOR A QUICK SALE. SAFETY DOESN'T MEAN MUCH.
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#987 - 04/19/01 08:38 AM Re: New receptacle/old home.
Redsy Offline
Member
Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
Thanks, guys. I am trying not to rationalize, but it seems to me that tying into an existing dedicated bath ckt to feed a non-bath ckt is a violation. But,is tapping into an existing non-dedicated-bath ckt to provide power to a bath truly a violation? As Bill pointed out the local AHJ is OK with this,and it is an improvement over the fixture receptacle. And as Steve stated -where do you draw the line for the purposes of re-selling an older home?

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 04-19-2001).]
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