The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Industrail Control Panel bonding per 409.108
by sparkyinak
Today at 03:17 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by aussie240
Yesterday at 02:39 AM
Photo Upload Tutorial
by DanK
12/06/16 11:35 PM
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
12/02/16 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 13
HotLine1 9
sparkyinak 8
Texas_Ranger 8
Trumpy 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 248 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#97161 - 01/28/06 08:37 PM Fun with "green' GEC
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I spent the day with Mark Ode (along with 170 other guys). I caught him on a break, mostly asking about the turned up rebar Ufer deal. (He was OK with it)
Then I got him with the "can a GEC be green"?
He said of course it can. I said prove it.
He was still thumbing the book an the next break. I bet he will remember me ;-)
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#97162 - 01/29/06 05:19 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Greg- I don't find where the color is called out for the GEC but if I were asked by a contractor what color for the GEC my answer would probably be "bare or green". I would be hard pressed to write a violation for them using a red or orange wire. Since it is a grounding wire albeit a GEC it seems practical to use green or bare. Most electricians and other electrically inclined persons recognize green as a grounding conductor. Notice I said "most"
_________________________
George Little

Top
#97163 - 01/29/06 08:46 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
Alan Nadon Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Elkhart, IN. USA
Any color or bare is allowed.
I made a proposal to the Code that at least in panels and switchboards it had to be identified with green or bare.
Rejected.
Seeing a black or red wire on a ground / neutral bar makes most electricians pause.
Oh well.

We plan on tackeling the rebar question next week. Any helpful information ?
Alan--
_________________________
Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

Top
#97164 - 01/29/06 09:15 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
winnie Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 652
Loc: boston, ma
Start with 310.12
310.12(B) directs us to 250.119 for _equipment grounding conductors_. 250.119 repeats: 'Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors'
The definition section distinguishes between Grounding Conductors and Grounding Conductors, Equipment. So 250.119 clearly does not apply to grounding conductors in general, but only to the specific subclass of _Equipment_ grounding conductors.

310.12(A) directs us to 200.6 for _grounded conductors_.
200.6 essentially specifies the use of white or grey for grounded conductors, possibly by marking for sizes larger than 6AWG
The definition section says that a grounded conductor is 'A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded.'

The GEC is not an EGC. The GEC is not a circuit conductor. But the GEC is a conductor, and part of the electrical system. Therefor the GEC is a grounded conductor and thus governed by 200.6, and must be bare have a _white_ (or one of the other 200.6 variations) covering.

*grin*

-Jon

[This message has been edited by winnie (edited 01-29-2006).]

Top
#97165 - 01/29/06 10:21 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
Redsy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
Nice "code loop", and interesting interpretation, Jon.
I would equate "grounded" conductors with neutrals, and/or grounded phase conductors which are intended to carry current(if need be)under normal operating conditions.
I never considered the GEC as a "grounded conductor" although it is a conductor and it is grounded.
BTW,
I usually use stranded black.

Top
#97166 - 01/29/06 10:44 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
winnie Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 652
Loc: boston, ma
Redsy,

I quite agree with you. I have always understood 'grounded conductor' to mean a conductor that is _intended_ to carry current, as opposed to the 'grounding conductors' which should _not_ carry current in a properly functioning system. The above interpretation is what I get when I read the literal wording in the code.

This does lead to a logical conflict, since an equipment grounding conductor is also a 'grounded conductor', and therefore required to be white and green at the same time.

How about another funny: if you don't buy that the GEC is a grounded conductor, and by definition the GEC is also not an EGC, then you get to 'the GEC may be any color'. However, based upon 310.12(C) if you use a particular color for the GEC, then you can't use that color for an ungrounded conductor. So your use of the black covering for a GEC means you can't use it as a phase conductor

-Jon

Top
#97167 - 01/29/06 12:31 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
Redsy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
Jon,
I have always rested on Article 200, which although titled "Use and Identification of Grounded Conductors", does not address conductors used for grounding purposes, and therefore would not consider conductors used for connecting Grounded Conductors to ground as grounded conductors, although these indeed are conductors which are connected to ground.

If you followed that, try this...

I can not consider that which is, without considering that by which, which is, is!

As far as 310.12(C), (grounded AND grounding conductors)good call!

Top
#97168 - 01/29/06 12:40 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Looks like we're back to green or bare for the GEC??

So if we have a bare Grounded or Ungrounded conductor we are stuck with Green for our GEC???

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 01-29-2006).]
_________________________
George Little

Top
#97169 - 01/29/06 02:28 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
Redsy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
George, If we have bare Ungrounded, we are "stuck" alright.

But you knew that.

Top
#97170 - 01/29/06 09:56 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
If I follow the code loop I end up with white or bare as logical choices. When you hang your amp probe on a GEC it will usually be carrying some of the unbalanced load.
It can be seen as an extension of the grounded conductor from the utility in a ring circuit that ends up being a parallel path back to the X0 via the earth or the water system.
It is hard to get over the idea that "grounding" conductors are not green but this is really a "grounded" conductor.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals