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#94979 - 08/22/05 03:41 PM Disconnect for Spa  
skingusmc  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 116
Simi Valley, CA USA
The situation is as follows:

All-in-one above ground spa that sits on a concrete pad.

Unit is hard wired to a GFCI C/B (50Amp) but the panel is not within sight of the spa.

Is a dissconnect within sight of the spa required?

I say yes (Art. 680.12). It seems pretty clear cut to me.

Thanks

Steve


Thanks
Steve

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#94980 - 08/22/05 03:50 PM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,060
Estero,Fl,usa
Yep I agree. The only bone of contention is if there is an integrated disconnect under the cover that is part of the listed assembly. I say that would suffice but I don't think a field installed switch inside the assembly would be kosher.
Otherwise you need a disconnect within site but >5' away from the water's edge.


Greg Fretwell

#94981 - 08/22/05 06:05 PM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
The actual words say that "Each means shall be accessible and within sight from it's equipment". IMHO the disconnect under the skirt satisfies both of these requirements. If there's a switch, installed under the skirt that's what it is for, to satisfy 680.12. Assume this is a residential installation and doesn't require a panic switch.


George Little

#94982 - 08/23/05 03:50 AM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
I haven't seen any with a switch that satisfies 680.12 under the skirt. "disconnect all ungrounded conductors" Often the skirt is screwed shut... Hardly accessable. Nor do I think you should be able to mess with said switch, if it had one, while in, or in contact with the tub. I think the idea was to have just about everything outside of 5' away from pools and spas including the disco. 680.41 would have you install a disco >5' within site, but for some reason doesn't apply to single family...


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#94983 - 08/23/05 07:03 AM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
e57,

The disco is required even on single family installations. The emergency stop is not required on single family install.

I would like someone to explain how a disco under the skirt could be considered "in sight" or meet the >5' requirement.

[This message has been edited by Jim M (edited 08-23-2005).]


#94984 - 08/23/05 07:07 AM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
e57- Look at the difinition of accessible and you could re-think your understanding. If we are under the '02 NEC I'd buy the disconnect under the skirt as code compliant but the '05 uses the words "readily accessible" and now that might change the way I look at this issue.

If the spa don't have a disconnect under the skirt, maybe that's where the installer will install the required "maintenance disconnect" [Linked Image]


George Little

#94985 - 08/23/05 07:12 AM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Jim- the words are "within sight from it's equipment" The spa is not "it's equipment" the pump is. That's the equipment that the switch disconnects. At least that's my the way I see it. Why do you think the manufacturer (some) installs that switch there?

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 08-23-2005).]


George Little

#94986 - 08/23/05 03:40 PM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
skingusmc  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 116
Simi Valley, CA USA
Thanks everyone for your comments. I don't think I would consider any switch under the skirt/cover/side to meet the >5', though it would qualify as a "disconnect".

Of course, I also think that the NEC could be stated in "plain language" a lot more and that they (NEC) need to say what they mean clearly and concisly and to mean what they say.

But that is an issue for a whole other discussion. (grin)


Thanks
Steve

#94987 - 08/24/05 12:03 AM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Jim, wasn't trying to imply the disco wasnt required, just that that other code included the language of "within site" as well. And also applicable if not at a single family. Often I use this to cover both codes.

george, This is from the commentary following 680.12, yes I know its not code, but as refferance to my thinking that the disco is not for the pump alone... Something I feel without the commentary. As it says, "all utilization equipment" I see that to include all of the (Mostly Automatic) Controls.
Quote
A disconnecting means is required to be installed within sight of the pool, spa, and hot tub equipment to allow service personnel to disconnect the power while servicing these units. This requirement ensures that a disconnect is available to workers servicing pool, spa, and hot tub equipment such as motors, heaters, and control panels. This requirement has been revised for the 2002 NEC to clarify that lighting equipment installed in swimming pools is not subject to this requirement.


Maybe its a regional thing, but I haven't seen ANY controls under the skirt, in eons.

And I believe it is 680.22(C) that puts that switch >5' away.

Also, there are two different "Accessable" definitions

"Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means." Like having a 6~8'X30" plywood panel with square drive screws put in with an impact wrench. With a deck built around it.... The idea is to shut the power off before you work on it. You wouldn't put the disco for any other equipment inside it would you.

And....
"Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."

If in other than single family, you would need "readily accessible". To cover 680.41 with a handy lable saying "Emergency shut off" Nothing in the NEC says it need be a panic switch just, "shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system".


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#94988 - 08/24/05 07:43 AM Re: Disconnect for Spa  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
e57-I'm not convinced that the maintenance disconnect we're talking about is required to be in addition to any disconnect located under the skirt of the spa. In fact since you've quoted the hand book I'm more convinced that this switch (under the skirt) is the only one required. The term "it's equipment" is talking about the equipment powered through the switch. There doesn't appear to be a need for any other disconnect for lights etc. If the disconnect disconnects "it's equipment" the two are required to be within sight of each other. If you must open the skirt of the spa to service it, square head screws and all, that's okay because now the disconnect and "it's equipment" are within sight of each other. Sometimes the spa and spa pack are not together. The pump and sanitation equipment are remote from the spa and then the disconnect must be located by "it's equipment" and I know we agree on this senario. As for the"panic button" I should have said "emergency switch" but HEY, means the same thing [Linked Image]


George Little

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