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#93720 - 06/08/05 02:31 PM Uses permitted/not permitted
George Little Offline
Member
Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1488
Loc: Michigan USA
Do you feel that the uses permitted is all inclusive or the uses not permited is all inclusive? For example 334.10 does not say NM cable is allowed in construction Types I and II and 334.12,Use not permited, does not show it as prohibited.
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George Little
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#93721 - 06/08/05 03:47 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
shortcircuit Offline
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Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
George Little,
Are you in the 2002 NEC?

The 2005 NEC seems to have cleared up this confusion with the addition of a new 334.12(A)(1)

shortcircuit
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#93722 - 06/08/05 05:16 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
George Little Offline
Member
Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1488
Loc: Michigan USA
Yes we are on the '02 and I agree the '05 is different. But the real crux of the problem is uses permitted and not permitted being not all inclusive.
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George Little
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#93723 - 06/08/05 05:39 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
e57 Offline
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Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2876
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
Whats different in the '05?

Did they realize they messed up the wording, or lack there-of in the '02?
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Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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#93724 - 06/08/05 06:00 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1374
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
In the 2005 you will find this FPN in all of the cable wiring methods xxx.10 sections, which should answer your question:

Quote:
FPN: The “Uses Permitted” is not an all-inclusive list.
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Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#93725 - 06/08/05 06:32 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
George Little Offline
Member
Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1488
Loc: Michigan USA
Ryan- It doesn't say it in article 334, 340 or 336, The one I'm ionterested in is 334 and it should.
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George Little
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#93726 - 06/08/05 06:41 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1374
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Far out, I didn't even look, my apologies.

I would be very comfortable as an AHJ saying that it is not all inclusive though.
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Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#93727 - 06/08/05 09:11 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
e57 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2876
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
We have debated this one several times lately, but don't think we got anywhere.

George brings up a valid point. It does not say 'permited' or 'not permited'.

So is it permited, or not?

George, have you, or do you plan to wire a high-rise in NM?
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Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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#93728 - 06/09/05 04:53 AM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
George Little Offline
Member
Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1488
Loc: Michigan USA
I am an inspector and this issue has come up under the '02 code that would presumably allow NM cable in a multifamily dwelling (5 story) of Type I construction.
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George Little
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#93729 - 06/09/05 05:56 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted
e57 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2876
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
Well George, I guess it is up to you then....

Although, as I said before, I see Romex as a "combustable", and has no place in Type 1, which are supposed to be "Non-combustable" in type of construction.

And that this code was written in a purposefully vague wording designed to be manipulated.

I see your point though... Doesn't allow, or dis-allow....
334.10 has notes: Not part of the NEC! Do you enforce codes outside of it?
Quote:
FPN No. 1:Building constructions are defined in NFPA 220-1999, Standard on Types of Building Construction, or the applicable building code, or both.
FPN No. 2:See Annex E for determination of building types [NFPA 220, Table 3-1].


Might be up to your Building, or Fire Inspector to throw down the guantlet from the codes they enforce.... Fire-stopping isn't really in the NEC, do you enforce that, or do they?
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Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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