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#93720 - 06/08/05 05:31 PM Uses permitted/not permitted  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Do you feel that the uses permitted is all inclusive or the uses not permited is all inclusive? For example 334.10 does not say NM cable is allowed in construction Types I and II and 334.12,Use not permited, does not show it as prohibited.


George Little

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#93721 - 06/08/05 06:47 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
shortcircuit  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
massachusetts
George Little,
Are you in the 2002 NEC?

The 2005 NEC seems to have cleared up this confusion with the addition of a new 334.12(A)(1)

shortcircuit


#93722 - 06/08/05 08:16 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Yes we are on the '02 and I agree the '05 is different. But the real crux of the problem is uses permitted and not permitted being not all inclusive.


George Little

#93723 - 06/08/05 08:39 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
e57  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Whats different in the '05?

Did they realize they messed up the wording, or lack there-of in the '02?


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#93724 - 06/08/05 09:00 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
Ryan_J  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
In the 2005 you will find this FPN in all of the cable wiring methods xxx.10 sections, which should answer your question:

Quote
FPN: The “Uses Permitted” is not an all-inclusive list.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#93725 - 06/08/05 09:32 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
George Little  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Ryan- It doesn't say it in article 334, 340 or 336, The one I'm ionterested in is 334 and it should.


George Little

#93726 - 06/08/05 09:41 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
Far out, I didn't even look, my apologies. [Linked Image]

I would be very comfortable as an AHJ saying that it is not all inclusive though.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#93727 - 06/09/05 12:11 AM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
We have debated this one several times lately, but don't think we got anywhere.

George brings up a valid point. It does not say 'permited' or 'not permited'.

So is it permited, or not?

George, have you, or do you plan to wire a high-rise in NM?


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#93728 - 06/09/05 07:53 AM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
George Little  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I am an inspector and this issue has come up under the '02 code that would presumably allow NM cable in a multifamily dwelling (5 story) of Type I construction.


George Little

#93729 - 06/09/05 08:56 PM Re: Uses permitted/not permitted  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Well George, I guess it is up to you then....

Although, as I said before, I see Romex as a "combustable", and has no place in Type 1, which are supposed to be "Non-combustable" in type of construction.

And that this code was written in a purposefully vague wording designed to be manipulated.

I see your point though... Doesn't allow, or dis-allow....
334.10 has notes: Not part of the NEC! Do you enforce codes outside of it?
Quote
FPN No. 1:Building constructions are defined in NFPA 220-1999, Standard on Types of Building Construction, or the applicable building code, or both.
FPN No. 2:See Annex E for determination of building types [NFPA 220, Table 3-1].


Might be up to your Building, or Fire Inspector to throw down the guantlet from the codes they enforce.... Fire-stopping isn't really in the NEC, do you enforce that, or do they?


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

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