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#93405 - 05/24/05 04:59 PM 210.52(E)
Roger Offline
Member
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 1716
Loc: N.C.
I was having a conversation with a friend this past Friday and this subject came up.

Does anybody have a clue as to why there is a difference in the two paragraphs?

What's the difference between "at grade level" as worded in the first paragraph and "from grade level" as worded in the second paragraph, and if there is a difference, why?

There is also some handbook commentary

Quote:
NEC 2005 Handbook commentary

For one- and two-family dwellings, the phrase accessible at grade level clearly requires that the two required receptacle outlets are to be available to a person standing on the ground (at grade level). Outdoor receptacle outlets on decks, porches, and similar structures can be used to meet 210.52(E) as long as the receptacle outlet is not more than 6 1/ 2 ft above grade and can be accessed by a person standing at grade.


What does that mean?

What about receptacles installed on a ;

1. concrete patio at grade level?

2. concrete patio 8 inches above grade level?

3. deck that is 24 inches above grade level that is accessible by stairs?

Would these receptacles be accessible at grade level?

Opinions please.

Roger


[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 05-24-2005).]
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#93406 - 05/24/05 05:21 PM Re: 210.52(E)
Tiger Offline
Member
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 706
Loc: Crystal Lake, IL USA
I don't get the confusion, Roger. The two required outlets have to be accesible when you're standing on the ground. If you have a high deck or balcony, you may want an outlet there. It may not satisfy the requirements of the two required outlets. The solution is to have more than two exterior outlets. It's only a problem if your attitude is minimalistic.

Dave
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#93407 - 05/24/05 05:42 PM Re: 210.52(E)
Roger Offline
Member
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 1716
Loc: N.C.
Tiger, did you mean attitude or altitude.

Then considering your post why is there diferent wording in the two paragraphs or even the need for two paragraphs?

What if there were a 20' wide by 8" high patio completely surrounding the house, unless you have extremely long arms you will not be able to access them from the "ground", and due to the fact that most of us have minamalistic length arms what would you say?

BTW, the reason for the topic isn't my problem if you're wondering, I don't do residential.

Roger
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#93408 - 05/24/05 06:14 PM Re: 210.52(E)
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1374
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
I think the reason for the two different terms is simply that the first paragraph has been in the code for a while, the second is new to the 2005. I'll bet this will change in the 2008 (maybe )
_________________________
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#93409 - 05/24/05 07:14 PM Re: 210.52(E)
Tiger Offline
Member
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 706
Loc: Crystal Lake, IL USA
I visited a relative in a home near the ocean. The home was on stilts, so that no part of the actual home was within reach. I don't recall seeing an outlet on the front and rear stilt. Per usual, it goes to the AHJ to interpret the requirements.

Dave
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#93410 - 05/24/05 07:34 PM Re: 210.52(E)
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5316
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Really- expecting proper grammar from engineers pretending to be lawyers- haven't we learned better by now? :-)

I think that the key word is accessible....remember, the porch/deck/patio is considered "outside" the house- even if they are completely screened in and without any doorway into the yard.
I can imagine a house on sloping ground, where I would understand the code to require a receptacle both at deck level, as well as outside the deck area, nearer the ground.

I would try to solve the question by looking at things from a practical level....where will the hedge trimmers and electric mower get power? Or the TV and electric Bar-B-Q on the deck? Will serving both needs from the same receptacle create additiona hazards- and are there other features that would keep this from happening?

Along these same lines, I think we can dispense with the "in use" cover if the deck has a roof over it.

The details of the deck might also affect my decision as to where to locate the roof-line receptacle for the Xmas lights as well :-)
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#93411 - 05/25/05 09:22 AM Re: 210.52(E)
JBD Offline
Member
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 599
Loc: WI, USA
In my opinion "at grade" means standing directly on the ground (ground does not mean dirt). "From grade" means leaving the ground to gain access is acceptable.

Imagine a set of steps that is 2 ft high by 7 ft deep, a receptacle at the top of steps is not accessible directly "at grade" but it is accessible by moving "from [the]grade".
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#93412 - 05/25/05 06:17 PM Re: 210.52(E)
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Dave

Quote:
It's only a problem if your attitude is minimalistic.


Roger's question was not one of workmanship but a straight forward question about the wording of the NEC.

Here is an example of the work Roger is involved with.



Nothing minimal here.
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#93413 - 05/25/05 08:15 PM Re: 210.52(E)
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5316
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Just remember- the NEC is not a design manual- so we shouldn't be surprised to find situations where it needs some inteligence applied to the application process :-)
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#93414 - 05/26/05 03:00 AM Re: 210.52(E)
Roger Offline
Member
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 1716
Loc: N.C.
John,
Quote:
Just remember- the NEC is not a design manual- so we shouldn't be surprised to find situations where it needs some inteligence applied to the application process :-)
you are getting close to the reason I started this thread.

Bob, thanks for the back up.

Roger
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