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#93405 - 05/24/05 07:59 PM 210.52(E)  
Roger  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
N.C.
I was having a conversation with a friend this past Friday and this subject came up.

Does anybody have a clue as to why there is a difference in the two paragraphs?

What's the difference between "at grade level" as worded in the first paragraph and "from grade level" as worded in the second paragraph, and if there is a difference, why?

There is also some handbook commentary

Quote
NEC 2005 Handbook commentary

For one- and two-family dwellings, the phrase accessible at grade level clearly requires that the two required receptacle outlets are to be available to a person standing on the ground (at grade level). Outdoor receptacle outlets on decks, porches, and similar structures can be used to meet 210.52(E) as long as the receptacle outlet is not more than 6 1/ 2 ft above grade and can be accessed by a person standing at grade.


What does that mean?

What about receptacles installed on a ;

1. concrete patio at grade level?

2. concrete patio 8 inches above grade level?

3. deck that is 24 inches above grade level that is accessible by stairs?

Would these receptacles be accessible at grade level?

Opinions please. [Linked Image]

Roger


[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 05-24-2005).]


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#93406 - 05/24/05 08:21 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
Tiger  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 706
Crystal Lake, IL USA
I don't get the confusion, Roger. The two required outlets have to be accesible when you're standing on the ground. If you have a high deck or balcony, you may want an outlet there. It may not satisfy the requirements of the two required outlets. The solution is to have more than two exterior outlets. It's only a problem if your attitude is minimalistic.

Dave


#93407 - 05/24/05 08:42 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
Roger  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
N.C.
Tiger, did you mean attitude or altitude. [Linked Image]

Then considering your post why is there diferent wording in the two paragraphs or even the need for two paragraphs?

What if there were a 20' wide by 8" high patio completely surrounding the house, unless you have extremely long arms you will not be able to access them from the "ground", and due to the fact that most of us have minamalistic length arms [Linked Image] what would you say?

BTW, the reason for the topic isn't my problem if you're wondering, I don't do residential.

Roger


#93408 - 05/24/05 09:14 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
I think the reason for the two different terms is simply that the first paragraph has been in the code for a while, the second is new to the 2005. I'll bet this will change in the 2008 (maybe [Linked Image])


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#93409 - 05/24/05 10:14 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
Tiger  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 706
Crystal Lake, IL USA
I visited a relative in a home near the ocean. The home was on stilts, so that no part of the actual home was within reach. I don't recall seeing an outlet on the front and rear stilt. Per usual, it goes to the AHJ to interpret the requirements.

Dave


#93410 - 05/24/05 10:34 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Really- expecting proper grammar from engineers pretending to be lawyers- haven't we learned better by now? :-)

I think that the key word is accessible....remember, the porch/deck/patio is considered "outside" the house- even if they are completely screened in and without any doorway into the yard.
I can imagine a house on sloping ground, where I would understand the code to require a receptacle both at deck level, as well as outside the deck area, nearer the ground.

I would try to solve the question by looking at things from a practical level....where will the hedge trimmers and electric mower get power? Or the TV and electric Bar-B-Q on the deck? Will serving both needs from the same receptacle create additiona hazards- and are there other features that would keep this from happening?

Along these same lines, I think we can dispense with the "in use" cover if the deck has a roof over it.

The details of the deck might also affect my decision as to where to locate the roof-line receptacle for the Xmas lights as well :-)


#93411 - 05/25/05 12:22 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
JBD  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 599
WI, USA
In my opinion "at grade" means standing directly on the ground (ground does not mean dirt). "From grade" means leaving the ground to gain access is acceptable.

Imagine a set of steps that is 2 ft high by 7 ft deep, a receptacle at the top of steps is not accessible directly "at grade" but it is accessible by moving "from [the]grade".


#93412 - 05/25/05 09:17 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Dave

Quote
It's only a problem if your attitude is minimalistic.


Roger's question was not one of workmanship but a straight forward question about the wording of the NEC.

Here is an example of the work Roger is involved with.

[Linked Image]

Nothing minimal here. [Linked Image]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#93413 - 05/25/05 11:15 PM Re: 210.52(E)  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Just remember- the NEC is not a design manual- so we shouldn't be surprised to find situations where it needs some inteligence applied to the application process :-)


#93414 - 05/26/05 06:00 AM Re: 210.52(E)  
Roger  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
N.C.
John,
Quote
Just remember- the NEC is not a design manual- so we shouldn't be surprised to find situations where it needs some inteligence applied to the application process :-)
you are getting close to the reason I started this thread.

Bob, thanks for the back up. [Linked Image]

Roger


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