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#90636 - 12/06/04 06:05 PM Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
This may be a worn out question but I was wondering what the maximum distance a main disconnect can be located from where the feed enters the building. Immediately on either side?

Is 35' feet horizontally along a concrete retaining wall too far?

There is a main in a csed located 125 feet from the home on a poco pole...service lateral to house then to garage wall which is about 35 feet from where it enters the building.

The panel can still be moved if need be.

thanks for any replies.

-regards

MUSTANG
_________________________
Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

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#90637 - 12/07/04 03:17 AM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Mustang...article 225.32 says the disconnect SHALL be readily accesible and located nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.

Any inspector I've discussed this with won't let that extend anymore than a few feet inside the building.

shortcircuit

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#90638 - 12/07/04 04:59 AM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
Yes, I know but it is not clearly defined. I have seen a lot of panels mounted 25 feet or more inside the dwelling and even down in basements from where it comes through the wall that have green stickers on them.

My situation is a 10' concrete retaining wall and the only practical place to bring it in was BEFORE this wall then run horizontally a few feet to an exteriror wall (garage). It does cross a laundry room.

I just think that the panel should be located on the garage wall and I do not like putting panels in laundry rooms.

Who determines what immediately means?

thanks for the replies.

-regards

Mustang
_________________________
Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

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#90639 - 12/07/04 05:03 AM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Mustang...ask the AHJ of his interpetation.

shortcircuit

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#90640 - 12/07/04 07:30 AM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
tdhorne Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 344
Loc: Maryland, USA
You have a Combination Service Entry Device (CSED) on a pole supplying 125' of feeder. Is that feeder three or four wires? Even with the CSED you stil need a building disconecting means. Have you considered obtaining the appropriate 3R enclosure for your panels main breaker? You buy the enclosure and a main lug kit, mount the enclosure outside the home, move the main breaker into that enclosure, and install the main lug kit in place of the main breaker. You can then run the feeder cable as far as you want to inside the home. If your feeder has been run in USE cable the maximum length inside the building is six feet of jacket becuase it is not fire retardent treated.

Type USE cable shall be installed outside in accordance with the provisions of Article 340. Type USE shall be permitted to be terminated in enclosures at an indoor location where Type USE cable emerges from the ground. The length of the cable extending indoors to the first termination box shall not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft).

--
Tom H
_________________________
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use" Thomas Alva Edison

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#90641 - 12/07/04 10:41 AM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
Thanks for the replies. The only AHJ is the state and they are not going to inspect because it is not required and I do not have a permit with them...in this particular location there is no city or county authority for electrical. I guess I am the AHJ! I am just trying to satisfy the nec..it is not clear what is allowed. I know some will allow more than others etc. There should be a maximum distance limitation so this would be clear.

The CSED was already onsite when I showed up. The first thing I noticed is it is held on with NAILS! All I did was bug on to it.

This is a Main Breaker panel with a feed through lug.

From the CSED to a PULL BOX on the side of the home is a 3 conductor USE. From this j- box there is a pvc nipple entering the BACK from the ceiling of the laundry room..this is a ASCR type 4 conductor cable...three insulated and a bare ground...suitable for inside wiring. NO USE INDOOR AT ALL.

There is a ground at the CSED that is tied to the POCO ground but no ground rod. This work was done by others.

I have two ground rods grounding the Main panel in the home. There is NO EGC from the CSED to the Main panel.

But the neutral is insulated. I do not have to run a ground with these conductors since I will be establishing one at the residence.

I could put a main outside but only if it were the last resort.

I think that I will relocate the panel in the laundry room which is the room that the ASCR crosses to get to the front wall of the garage (entrance wall) this wall is the same wall as the laundry room. I feel that if I were to turn the panel around 180 degrees and have it in the same room that the cable enters from the outside that this would be acceptable.

Thanks for the help.

-regards

MUSTANG

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 12-07-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 12-07-2004).]
_________________________
Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

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#90642 - 12/07/04 04:21 PM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Mustang...what does CSED stand for?

shortcircuit

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#90643 - 12/07/04 04:22 PM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
and ASCR?

shortcircuit

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#90644 - 12/07/04 07:32 PM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
Thanks for the replies. CSED stands for Combination Service Entrance Device (this is a meterbase with a main and provisions for branch circuits and with feed through lugs. The panel I use is a SQ-D and it is a pretty good setup. I always use these because you can get a generator kit and it will accpet a breaker style TVSS (transient voltage surge suppressor).

As for ASCR or "ASER" I meant to say .(ASCR is also a cable but is not what I meant I think ASCR is overhead cable with a steel guy/carrier or center wire/strand.)..this is ALUMINUM SERVICE ENTRANCE CABLE (ROMEX type)... at least thats what I have always called it..it is 3 insulated and a bare ground inside a sheath..used for inside or outside wiring mainly to feed sub panels or a main panel from a main disco. 4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 in my case..look at this ref: http://www.cerrowire.com/cerrowire/catalog/Cerro/ALUMINUM%20SER.pdf

I was looking over the building tonight and there is a 10 foot concrete wall and a 8 foot LOG wall on the exterior wall where the feed comes through..the wall connecting to that on one side has a top plate made of 2 - 2"X12"s nailed together and they stand on edge. The opposite wall where the feed comes in there is a glu-lam that is 12 X 6. the joist run at right angles to the concrete retainer wall and the wall with the glu-lam. the other wall, which is the shared wall between the garage and the laundry room, is the closest place there is to place this main breaker panel due to structural aspects. the washer and dryer occupy the only available wall space where the feeder comes in. It is about twenty feet from where the point of entrance is.

I need to be able to get my cables in the top of the panel. I cant drill down a set of 2X12's or a glu-lam.

I could set a main breaker on that wall and then out of it to a main lug only panel though.

I see no reason a ASER type cable would not be allowed further than 10 feet...IMMEDIATELY means, IMMEDIATELY on the OTHERSIDE of the WALL. Not ANY distance but IMMEDIATELY. There are THOUSANDS of NEW homes built in 2004 that do not have the MB on the exterior wall or IMMEDIATELY located at the point of entrance.

This is why the NEC should place a dimension on this. A min and a max.

I hate to run to the state inspector to ask what they think. I am not sure they are evn setup to field questions of this type.

I will have to chew on this some more.

Thanks for the help.

-regards

Mustang



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 12-07-2004).]
_________________________
Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

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#90645 - 12/08/04 03:11 AM Re: Main Disconnect Location on Inside wall..
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Mustang...where to you get the term IMMEDIATELY in the code book?

I see the terms NEAREST and READILY ACCESSIBLE when refering to the location of the service disconnecting means as in 230.70 and building disconnecting means refered to in 225.32

If you have overcurrent protection on the feeder at the CSED,then I don't see a major problem with locating the building disconnecting means further in the building as you have described.

If the concrete floor isn't poured yet...you could continue the underground feeder under the floor to your desired location and pour concrete over it which will make the feeder still outside of the building...see 230.6

shortcircuit

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