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#90198 - 11/02/04 05:10 PM Derating Application
golf junkie Offline
Member
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 507
Loc: York, NE
We had one of our crews run into a situation yesterday with derating.

Final inspection, a new office in a converted industrial space. The guys had run 7 ckts. in a 3/4" emt. 7 hots, 7 neutrals, one ground, #12 thhn, 20a ocpd.

The state inspector failed them for derating. He said that, "Since this was a single phase service all neutrals are counted as current carrying conductors." These circuits are all general use plugs and lighting. No Non-linear loads, no HID lighting.

My repsonse is WTF??????? This is definitely a new one on me. I consider that conduit to have 7 current carrying conductors per the NEC. Please educate me if I'm wrong.

GJ
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#90199 - 11/02/04 05:16 PM Re: Derating Application
Dave55 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 697
Loc: Crystal Lake, Illinois, USA
I don't know how other guys figure this, but I'm pretty sure if I took the neutral out of the service and pinched it's end between my fingers, then, with a different finger, touched the screw where it came from I'd find it to be "current-carrying", so I count it as such.

(Don't try this at home.)

Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave55 (edited 11-02-2004).]
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#90200 - 11/02/04 06:39 PM Re: Derating Application
Electric Ian Offline
Member
Registered: 02/10/04
Posts: 133
Loc: MA, USA
Current may indeed flow through your fingers but I dare say it would be "unbalanced current" and thus 310.15(B)(4)(a)would apply, no?

310.15(B)(4)(a)
A neutral conductor that carries only the unbalanced current from other conductors of the same circuit shall not be required to be counted when applying the provisions
of 310.15(B)(2)(a). (derating table)
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#90201 - 11/02/04 06:48 PM Re: Derating Application
Dave55 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 697
Loc: Crystal Lake, Illinois, USA
I understand that portion of the NEC to apply to multiwire branch circuits. As it is described as 7 hots and 7 neutrals for 7 circuits, I don't think it applies.

Dave
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#90202 - 11/02/04 06:56 PM Re: Derating Application
Norstarr Offline
Member
Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Wi
Junkie,
I'm under the impression that you have 7 two wire circuits which means they are all current carrying conductors. Looking at 310.15(B)(2)(a) you find that you must derate to 50% of the thhn value of 30A and the ocpd would be 15A.
Why aren't you installing 3 wire circuits which would reqire you to derate to 70% and your ocpd would be 20A?
Ron
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#90203 - 11/02/04 07:19 PM Re: Derating Application
Electric Ian Offline
Member
Registered: 02/10/04
Posts: 133
Loc: MA, USA
You guys are right. I was thinking 3 wire circuits with shared neutral. Separate neutral with each phase wire - all neutrals are indeed current carrying conductors.
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#90204 - 11/02/04 07:21 PM Re: Derating Application
e57 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2876
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
Nailed on derating, and fill factor.

358.22 to Chapter 9 Table 1, and notes to Tables. 40% fill, not 88%.

The only way I could see 15 #12's being allowed, is if were in a 23" conduit, and even then, I wouldn't do it.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 11-02-2004).]
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"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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#90205 - 11/02/04 07:36 PM Re: Derating Application
Dave55 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 697
Loc: Crystal Lake, Illinois, USA
I use Annex C, Table C1 Maximum Number of Conductors....in EMT.

Type THHN, THWN for 3/4" EMT is 16 conductors for 12 ga. Of course there would be some derating involved.

Dave
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#90206 - 11/02/04 07:42 PM Re: Derating Application
Electric Ian Offline
Member
Registered: 02/10/04
Posts: 133
Loc: MA, USA
Up to 16 THHN conductors in 3/4" EMT allowed per table C1 in annex C.
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#90207 - 11/02/04 08:06 PM Re: Derating Application
caselec Offline
Member
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 558
Loc: San Jose, CA
Mark,
The tables in Annex C are not 100% fill, they are based on Chapter 9 Table 1. (16) #12 THHN conductors would meet the 40% fill requirement for ¾” EMT according to Annex C Table C1.
The area of #12 THHN is .0133”
16 X .0133 = .2128”
¾” EMT is .213 @ 40% fill

Curt
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Curt Swartz
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