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#90010 - 10/28/04 08:03 AM GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
I need to set a 60A load center out at a pool for the pumps/heat etc..

Is it best to feed this whole panel from a gf breaker or just use individual breakers where required? All of this equipment has to be fed from a GF breaker anyway does it not? Outlets can get a GFI recept but the pump is 240 V and the heat is 120 V.

Thanks for any replies.

-regards

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-28-2004).]
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#90011 - 10/28/04 12:18 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
Active 1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 684
Loc: Grayslake IL, USA
Myself I don't like having too many different things on one GFI. Using seperate GFI breakers it would make problem solving much easier if you had an intermitant tripping.

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#90012 - 10/28/04 12:21 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
mhulbert Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 133
Loc: Anaheim, CA USA
Something to think about- if you have a grounf leakage in one piece of equipment, everything shuts down. How do you troubleshoot this down to the faulty item? Also, if your feeder is long, the (capacitive?) coupling to ground can trip the feeder breaker. I know the square D QO-GFI breakers list a max length for downstream conductors, can't remember what it is at the moment.

I asked a similiar question to an inspector once- If we have an area that needs a bunch of GFI's, like a commercial kitchen or similiar , can't we just put a Ground Fault system like those used for services on the feeder and hook it to a shunt trip breaker, and set it at 5mA??? He said that that would satisfy the NEC, but would be a really bad design, because of the reasons above.
Mike

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#90013 - 10/28/04 12:38 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
The pump doesn't have to be GFCI unless it is cord and plug connected, nor does the heater. You can probably just put in one GFCI breaker for the light and receptacle.
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#90014 - 10/28/04 12:59 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
I am glad I asked this question. I see where you are coming from. It would be difficult to isolate a problem downstream if there were multiple circuits and several devices on the gf breaker.

I plan to hard wire the pump and the heat...the convenience outlets will get a GFI recept each.

Doesnt the case of the pump motor have to bond to the egc and the pool steel?

The pool contractor did all the grounding on the pool itself and ran a insulated #8 thhn over to the pump pad...i am just going to bond this to the egc.

I do not need a ground rod do I?

thanks

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-28-2004).]
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#90015 - 10/28/04 01:38 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Pool pump motors have a lug for the bonding conductor up near the pump head. This is separate from the EGC connection which is a green screw in the wiring compartment although they are both electrically common through the motor frame.
You may find out the bonding wire was supposed to be solid. YMMV
Some newer lugs, particularly the StaRite, are only listed for solid wire.
You don't need a rod

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 10-28-2004).]
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#90016 - 10/28/04 01:44 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
capt al Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 203
Loc: Norton, Ma USA
Mustang I have to agree with Active 1.
A service call I went out on for a pool panel with intermittent tripping turned into a 3 day call. 200 amp GFI breaker feeding 42 circuit panel for pool equipment. This was an indoor pool in an assisted care living center. Every other day the main would trip shutting down the whole pool area. One circuit fed from this panel was the lights for the pool area. Not good having people in their 80's put in the dark. Ended up removing GFI main & installing GFI breakers as needed. Also traced problem down to a bad filter pump which was replaced. Customer did not want GFI main for panel any longer. He had the pool wired this way originally to save money on individual GFI circuit breakers.
Al

[This message has been edited by capt al (edited 10-28-2004).]

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#90017 - 10/28/04 01:52 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
mustangelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 496
Loc: Bentonville, AR
Hi,
Are you saying the bonding wire from the pool steel needs to be solid? or are you saying the bond for the case must be solid? i knew that was required for a spa/hot tub..but would have to go look to see if it is a solid conductor that is required here.

the last time i bonded a pool i used all solid wire..

i was planning on running the bond from the motor case along the outside of the NM Flex and grounded to the panel using a lug on the outside.

the pool cotnractor ran stranded #8 from the pool to the pump

what is YMMV?


thanks for the info

mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-28-2004).]
_________________________
Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

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#90018 - 10/28/04 02:14 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Back to the main GFCI or individual ones.

It is always a better installation to use individual GFCI protection.

Each device connected to the GFCI main has some leakage current, the total of this leakage current may well trip the GFCI main.

If this happens it will be frustrating to troubleshoot as each branch circuit will be fine when tested, it is only when all are connected at the same time that the problem will happen.

Keep in mind if you decide to use a GFCI main to provide required personal protection the trip level will still have to be 5 ma.

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#90019 - 10/28/04 02:41 PM Re: GF BREAKER or STANDARD?
watthead Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/01
Posts: 182
Loc: South Carolina
680.26(C) requires a solid conductor for the pool bonding grid.

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