ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 17
Recent Posts
Anyone hiring inspectors?
by sparky66wv. 03/26/17 12:22 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Admin. 03/25/17 11:40 AM
ESA Arc flash course
by TheShockDoctors. 03/24/17 10:15 AM
fuse rejectors
by HotLine1. 03/24/17 07:53 AM
Another Forum Update
by Admin. 03/22/17 03:04 PM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
231,509 Are you busy
166,213 Re: Forum
160,660 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (sparky66wv), 62 guests, and 12 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#89809 - 10/20/04 07:05 AM Outlet?  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
The definition of an "outlet" in the code is somewhat controversial IMHO. There are those who would say a receptacle or a lighting fixture box are outlets. Others will say any box that contains a neutral is considered an outlet. So, one could say a switch located in a bedroom that controls a flood light outside the house is an outlet and requires AFCI. What say you?


George Little

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#89810 - 10/20/04 07:08 AM Re: Outlet?  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
In my opinion, it is not an outlet unless it directly supplies some type of equipment. The switch is not an outlet.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#89811 - 10/20/04 07:24 AM Re: Outlet?  
shortcircuit  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
massachusetts
An outlet is something that uses power.A switch only controls the power.So I would say that the switch that controls a flood light outside of a bedroom need not be AFCI protected.

shortcircuit


#89812 - 10/20/04 08:02 AM Re: Outlet?  
Yoopersup  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 822
Michigan
Definations answers your Question. Both switch and oulet are in there. Out (A point on the wiring System at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.)A switch is not utilization equipment.


#89813 - 10/20/04 01:34 PM Re: Outlet?  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
In my opinion, there are four key definitions in Article 100 that interlock into a whole, with respect to your question, George.
  • Premises Wiring (System) - branch circuit in the walls
  • Controller - light switch
  • Outlet
  • Utilization Equipment - flood light
We are told that the current path internal to a controller is not part of the Premises Wiring. Current has to be taken from the Premises Wiring for it to flow in the Controller.

When the controller allows an equipment (flood light) to utilize energy, the current for the utilization equipment must be taken from the premises wiring system, routed through the controller, returned to the premises wiring system and be taken again at the flood light.

In my opinion, a light switch is installed at an outlet.


Al Hildenbrand

#89814 - 10/20/04 02:05 PM Re: Outlet?  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Al,
Quote
We are told that the current path internal to a controller is not part of the Premises Wiring. Current has to be taken from the Premises Wiring for it to flow in the Controller.

The controller (switch) does not use the current and is not ultilization equipment, therefore it is not installed at an outlet.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#89815 - 10/20/04 02:33 PM Re: Outlet?  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Don,
Quote
resqcapt19 wrote: In my opinion, it is not an outlet unless it directly supplies some type of equipment.
The NEC does not use the language directly supplies.

The current only has to be taken from the wiring system and be current that is to supply utilization equipment. I see nothing in the definition of Outlet that limits "A" point to being "The only" point.


Al Hildenbrand

#89816 - 10/20/04 04:41 PM Re: Outlet?  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Al,
You read it your way and I'll read it mine. I will never change my opinion on this issue unless the NFPA issues a formal interpretation saying that I am wrong. We spent 11 pages on this issue on Mike Holt's forum and it was not resolved.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#89817 - 10/20/04 05:24 PM Re: Outlet?  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Yup. [Linked Image]

Don, we have two different readings.

I join you, George Little, in asking, "What say you?" to the rest of the community.

The meaning of Outlet is the heart of the question, seems to me, not whether a switch utilizes energy.


Al Hildenbrand

#89818 - 10/20/04 05:33 PM Re: Outlet?  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
I share Don's opinion, personally.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
HappyElectrician
HappyElectrician
Penn USA
Posts: 31
Joined: December 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.016s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8154 MB (Peak: 0.9905 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-03-26 17:06:42 UTC