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#86232 - 09/26/03 08:14 PM additional ckts in bathrooms  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
If I installed the required 20a circuit in a bathroom,actually I am installing 3 on the vanity countertop, would an additional receptacle in a separate toilet area that is part if the bathroom need to be 20a also?

The sub-room will only contain the toilet and a piece of furniture for the linens.

Code references please or why.

Thanks,
Jim


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#86233 - 09/26/03 08:19 PM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
You do not have a bathroom.

Defined: Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.

210.11(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with Section 210-23(a).



[This message has been edited by Ryan_J (edited 09-26-2003).]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#86234 - 09/26/03 09:07 PM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
Ryan,

This is in a bathroom, it is walled off only for privacy.


#86235 - 09/27/03 07:31 AM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
Electricmanscott  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
Holden, MA USA
I guess if it is a toilet only in a seperate room it is not considered a "Bathroom" therefore the rules don't apply. Although the nec defines a bathroom as an "area" not a "room" which could lead someone to say this is in the same area.


#86236 - 09/27/03 07:43 AM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
so maybe we should have an added definition of 'watercloset'?

then 210.8(A)(1) & 210.11(C)(3) would apply?


#86237 - 09/27/03 08:03 AM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
In the definition of bathroom, it is not defined as a room, but an area.
This case is just the reason for this definition. The receptacle for that area can be run from the bathroom 20 amp circuit and it will meet the code requirements. Don't forget the GFCI protection of this receptacle.
This "sub-room is part of the 'area' of the bathroom definition.

Pierre


Pierre Belarge

#86238 - 09/27/03 09:42 AM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
well that's my Q here Pierre, if it's not definitionally a "bathroom", does gfi protection apply?


#86239 - 09/27/03 01:04 PM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Ryan,

The NEC handbook, in the explanatory text following 210.8(A)(1) states:
Quote
The term applies to the entire area, whether a separating door, as illustrated in Exhibit 210.9, is present or not.

Exhibit 210.9 from the Handbook shows two rooms. The first room entered has hand basins in it, and a second door. Through the second door one enters a room containing a bathtub and a toilet.

The two rooms form the area of the bathroom. The toilet in a room by itself with a hand basin in the room outside the toilet door is a bathroom area.


Al Hildenbrand

#86240 - 09/27/03 01:40 PM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Jim,
Quote
If I installed the required 20a circuit in a bathroom,actually I am installing 3 on the vanity countertop,. . .

I guess that you aren't installing three circuits to the vanity, rather three receptacles on one circuit.

My take on 210.11(C)(3)exception, is that one can add additional outlets to the required bath 20 amp circuit serving only one bath. . .as long as the additional outlets are inside that same bath. However, I am not told that ALL the outlets within that bath MUST be added to that 20 amp circuit. Rather, I can pick and choose.

The GFI requirement for receptacles in the bathroom is blanket, gotta have it.

For me, the common sense logic, of the larger capacity circuit serving the vanity and thereby the large hairdryer load, is covered once the receptacle is at the vanity. Additional outlets (lights, fans, WC receptacle) may be added to the 20 amp bath circuit, but are not required to be.

[This message has been edited by ElectricAL (edited 09-27-2003).]


Al Hildenbrand

#86241 - 09/27/03 05:23 PM Re: additional ckts in bathrooms  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
my own preference is to run a dedicated circuit to each bath, regardless of how many baths there may be to take advantage of that very exception.

this allows fop load side wiring of shower recessed of fan/lights within the 3' zone.

it eliminates needing blank faced gfi's

note HB Exibit 210.9 ,(thank you Al [Linked Image]) and the proximity of both fixture & switch to the 'zone'

i'd load side that even if the manufacturing instructions didn't require it

i also run part of a lighting circuit into the bath for say, a vanity or other non-zone light

all lights on a gfi can add to the hazard of whatever made the gfi trip out


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