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#85988 - 08/25/03 03:44 PM Listing vs. Code
Ryan_J Offline
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1355
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Which takes precedant...listing or code? Example: In a dentist office, the lights above the eximining chair are listed for ceiling mount. They come pre-wired as a cord and plug type assembly, with the cord going through the light, up the neck and into the ceiling. I have problems with cords in ceilings and cords passing through ceilings. Thoughts?
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#85989 - 08/25/03 04:09 PM Re: Listing vs. Code
iwire Offline
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
I got hammered on this before, most said no cords in the ceiling.

The item I had questions about was a motorized mount for a video projector.

It was UL listed and the only place an outlet would work was above the ceiling, the whole unit retracts flush with the suspended ceiling.

So do I remove the cord and hardwire it or put the outlet above the ceiling.

I have a set of prints now that ask for "Outlet in ceiling for projector"

Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
#85990 - 08/25/03 04:13 PM Re: Listing vs. Code
George Corron Offline
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 728
Loc: Lorton, Va USA
Do the manufacturers instructions say the cord passes through the ceiling, or is the cord and plug assembly supposed to be visible? As in a swag lamp?

Might wanna consult UL and find out what info was submitted if you find the instructions suspicious. Occasionally a manufacturer amends the installation instructions without submitting the change to UL, but they are not supposed to.

If you find it wrong, might wanna 'splain it to 'em, Lucy.

In the event of a tie, listing by a NRTL wins, as per our own code instructions, but that don't mean it's installed as the NRTL certified.
#85991 - 08/25/03 04:58 PM Re: Listing vs. Code
Bjarney Offline
Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 2561
Loc: West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
Wouldn’t this be treated as similar to {99NEC} 410-30 for other cord-connected fixtures and lampholders?
#85992 - 08/26/03 06:36 AM Re: Listing vs. Code
Ryan_J Offline
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1355
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Gentlemen, thanks for your replies. George: The cord passes through the ceiling, as per the manufacturer's instructions. I like your idea on looking more into the actual listing from UL, I think I'll do that. You speak of our code instructing us to have the listing prevail over the code. Are you refering to 110.3?
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
#85993 - 08/26/03 06:59 AM Re: Listing vs. Code
resqcapt19 Offline
Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
The listing rules do not have the force of law and cannot over ride the code rules which do have the force of law. In my opinion, in the case of conflict the most restrictive rule, either in the listing or the code should be applied. In this case, the cord and plug cannot be above the ceiling.
#85994 - 08/26/03 10:53 AM Re: Listing vs. Code
JBD Offline
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 599
Loc: WI, USA
Based on these 2002 NEC articles this cord connected light should be allowed:

The light is an appliance (Art100 defines an appliance as "Utilization equipment...").

The appliance is designed and listed and therefore intended for cord connection (Art400.7(8) specifically says "...the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.").

The restriction against cords above ceilings as found in Art400.8(5) is not pertinent because the entire Art400.8 is not applicable (Art400.8 says "Uses Not Permitted. Unless specfically permitted in 400.7...")
#85995 - 08/26/03 12:27 PM Re: Listing vs. Code
electech Offline
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 113
Loc: Northern Il
If you want info on the safety listing of a product, the best place to go is the manufacturer (listee). It would be improper for an NRTL to have these sorts of conversations with anyone calling up on the phone - confidentiality agreements with their clients are required by ISO guide 25. The manufacturer is free to go into as much detail as they wish with whoever they wish - they could even send you a copy of the report data that they paid for.

Besides, who would you call? You would have to know what office the product was evaluated at and/or the file number/report number. And then where is your purchase order for the consulting work you are asking for? Your inquiry may lead to someone doing some checking on a given product (though I doubt it ), but shouldn't result in your immediate satisfaction. I wouldn't be comfortable using an NRTL that had a blab fest with every wise guy who gives them a call...

I'd say the best way through the corporate firewall would be to call the manufacturing or engineering location and ask to speak to a person in compliance, regulatory, or product safety engineering concerning the listing on product XYZ that your company is considering using. The person you reach may be completely clueless, or they might be able to explain every last detail of their product listing.
#85996 - 08/26/03 06:34 PM Re: Listing vs. Code
Ryan_J Offline
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1355
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Update: I got my hands on the installation guidelines for these appliances today. What do you know...plain as day it says that when mounting to ceiling, use a 3/8" flexible conduit to an electrical box for the connection...

Maybe I should have posted this thread under the "tricky contractors" thread started by Think good!!!
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City


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