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#85438 - 07/06/03 12:12 PM Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
I got involved in a discussion on another forum about the requirements for indicating switches, 430.104 and 422.35

A house has an attic exhaust fan and the customer wants to switch it from more than one location, my feeling is once you have provided the required indicating type disconnect at the fan itself you could use 3 or 4 way switches throughout the house.

But there have been many that feel any switch for the motor must be indicating type ruling out control from more than one location.

I am prepared to it crow on this I have before and will again, but I would like to get some more opinions on this.

Thanks for any help even if it shows I am wrong, Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#85439 - 07/06/03 01:30 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Bob,
The 3 or 4 way switches would actually be motor controllers and each of these switches would require a disconnect per 430.102(A). I see no way that a set of 3 way switches, with or without indication, can be used as the required means of disconnect for a motor. The means of disconnect must disconnect the conductors from the power source and a 3 way does not do that. The means of disconnect must be under the control of the person working on the equipment and the remote 3 way makes this control impossible.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#85440 - 07/06/03 02:53 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Thanks Don, I did overlook the requirement for a disconnect at the controller.

So how do I control an attic or bathroom fan from 2 locations?

Bob

Oh and I am talking about switches in addition to and not in place of the required disconnect at the motor.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-06-2003).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#85441 - 07/06/03 04:20 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
While it is a big "overkill" it appears that the only code compliant way to control a motor from two or more location is by using a remote control circuit and a contactor with a disconnect at the contactor. This is a case where "common sense" should be used and the 3 way switches should be permitted to control the motor without a disconnect at each switch as long as there is a disconnect at the motor.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#85442 - 07/06/03 04:33 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Don OK, I will admit defeat in this, thank you for your replies even if it was the opposite of what I was hoping for. [Linked Image]

I think I will continue to use common sense as long as the AHJ is agreeable, I do not see me installing stop start stations in dwelling bathrooms.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#85443 - 07/07/03 08:25 AM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
Hello bob

Most dwelling bath fans are plug and receptacle connected inside the enclosure. I am sure that a 3 way switch to the bath exhuast fan is compliant. As far as the attic fan, that may be another story

Pierre


Pierre Belarge

#85444 - 07/07/03 08:30 AM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
To add to my prior post.
I forgot to mention the indicating means required for the bath fan is the 'plug and receptacle' in the enclosure. When unplugged, I believe that indicates it is off.

Pierre


Pierre Belarge

#85445 - 07/07/03 01:19 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Pierre

I certainly thought that as well but it seems to be otherwise [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#85446 - 07/07/03 05:11 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Bob,
I agree that the use of the plug and receptacle at the fan provides an acceptable means of disconnect for the motor as required by 430.109(B).
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#85447 - 07/07/03 07:12 PM Re: Indicating Switch Requirements for Motors  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Don now you have me confused that's easy to do. [Linked Image]

Quote
it appears that the only code compliant way to control a motor from two or more location is by using a remote control circuit and a contactor with a disconnect at the contactor. This is a case where "common sense" should be used and the 3 way switches should be permitted to control the motor without a disconnect at each switch as long as there is a disconnect at the motor


But then this.

Quote
I agree that the use of the plug and receptacle at the fan provides an acceptable means of disconnect for the motor as required by 430.109(B).
Don


What makes these two installations different from each other?

So if I can unplug the motor in my bathroom fan I can use 3 ways at each door to run the fan?

But If I put a single pole indicating switch at the motor as the required disconnect switch for a fan in the attic I can not use 3 way switches downstairs to turn the fan on and off?

I guess I am beating a dead horse because I am just not getting this.???????????

Thanks for your patience, Bob who is now considering making fries for a living. [Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-07-2003).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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