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#85285 - 06/15/03 07:48 AM Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
With reference to the subject of:

Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits often required by local, city, or state electrical departments, I ask if they are considered as public record, and if they are to be kept on the job for review by city official's during the construction phase of a project?

The "As Built" drawings are not usually available until after the job, and are they also required to be made available to the AHJ and are also public records.

Keep in mind that the NEC says "if required" in:

 Quote:
215.5 Diagrams of Feeders.
If required by the authority having jurisdiction, a diagram showing feeder details shall be provided prior to the installation of the feeders. Such a diagram shall show the area in square feet of the building or other structure supplied by each feeder, the total computed load before applying demand factors, the demand factors used, the computed load after applying demand factors, and the size and type of conductors to be used.


How many AHJ's would not require this information and why would anyone have a problem with this?

If the plans and specifications show the installation to be inspected, and have undergone an electrical plan check, and the electrical permit was issued, I believe that they must be accessible for review at all times.

Any other opinions are welcomed.
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#85286 - 06/15/03 08:14 AM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
George Corron Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 728
Loc: Lorton, Va USA
Joe,
You're well aware that plan review and inspection has been my job for a long time, it is taking me a while to get used to not doing it. In VA, the stamped copies are supposed to be on the job available to the inspector during inspections. All agencies around here have the last big red stamp that says "All installations must comply with the current edition of the VAUSBC", kind of a catch all.

While working for private engineering firms, I did not always have to have them since I was the one who did the review, but I would feel uncomfortable doing this in a public inspection forum. That said, lots of inspections get made here without anyone checking, part of my rancor of "too many inspections, too little time" and the new combo system everyone has gone to.

The fire alarm stuff I sent the pic of has not undergone an inspection, nuff said, but the chillers I recently sent in had indeed undergone the entire process, no excuse there except either lack of knowledge, or time. I believe it shows a common problem in the process.

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#85287 - 06/15/03 09:11 AM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Thanks George for your comments, and they are so true!

The issues related to combination inspectors is a sore spot in my mind, because I have had to go out on the job during my career and explain why the "copper pipe" was not allowed for the fuses here!

Some will indicate that the "dummy not fuses" are are available, but using them would probably be a mistake (hazard) waiting to happen if someone decided to use them here ... "DUH! it are a dummy fuse like I are ?&^%$#$@%"

In my mind, to even think about installing them is a big mistake ...... now let's look and listen for the fireworks to begin from the bystanders here, and maybe even the from some of the long time LURKERS!!!
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#85288 - 06/15/03 01:38 PM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
George Corron Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 728
Loc: Lorton, Va USA
Heck Joe,
I'd let 'em use 'em........ the minute they could prove their fuse capacity and flame retard point........ and there is of course 110 where the fuse coordination study MIGHT be a bit touchy with the solid pipe

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#85289 - 06/15/03 03:42 PM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
Bjarney Offline
Moderator

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 2561
Loc: West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
Comment on Joe’s combination-starter insides picture: the “dummy” fuses look “field fabricated” from copper tubing. There’s one problem—tubing is mis-sized, for the ferrule diameter of 240V Class-RK5 is 9/16-inch, and 600V Class-J is 13/16-inch. Copper tubing OD is ½, 5/8, ¾ or 7/8. whick will distort, or require distorting, ‘NEC’ fuse clips to work. Believe it or not, Busmman (and maybe others) make true brass dummy fuses. They may not be listed, but they fill a specifc need, and are obviously marked for their intended purpose.

It’s come up at E-C.net before, but I can’t find it in a search.

See page 2 at http://www.prime-electronics.com.au/datasheets/Bussmann/Fuse%20Accessories%20&%20Display%20Kits.pdf They’re kinda’ hidden for being online, but this link looks like page 184 of their catalog. Bussmann Class-R(!) “Dummy Fuses” [N.B.: catalog numbers NTN-R (30-400 amp) and NTS-R (30-600 amp) ] The point is, there is a product made to exactly fit the need—agreed under special circumstances where there is clearly properly-rated overcurrent protection upstream.

They will safely convert a fusible device to non-fused, the same as a non-fused combination starter, or (in some cases) where a fuse trailer block cannot be removed to reconnect the magnetic-starter "L" leads directly to the lower terminals of the disconnect switch—in place of the top fuse clips.

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#85290 - 06/16/03 08:24 AM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Joe:
Back to your original question...

Here in New Jersey:
Signed (approved) plans are to be located at the jobsite at all times, and be available to all AHJ's.
(NO PLANS, NO INSPECTIONS, and a red sticker)
The above applies to all permitted jobs that are checked "plans reviewed & approved" on the permit application.

Yes, feeder, service, and all other load calc's are required for plan review and approvals.

Enforcement of the above varies by locality, although it is part of the State UCC. Again, sometimes it is a case of to many inspections, and to little time, sad but unfortunatley true in the real world.

John
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John

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#85291 - 06/16/03 08:34 AM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
John:

Thanks for getting back on track, I appreciate your reply and support for the comments I made.

I just hope everyone will agree when it comes to the plans, specs, and permits.

Some do have, and other's don't have any formal plan check and some people get away with a sketch on a brown paper bag!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 06-16-2003).]
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#85292 - 06/16/03 10:20 AM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
There are a lot of areas where the permit is just a fee you pay to the city. No plan review, no inspection, no nothing, just a permit fee and the permit passed on to the county so that the real estate taxes can be collected. some of these areas have adopted the NEC, but there is no enforcement. It becomes a problem for the building owner who does not understand the electrical system. No one is making sure that it is installed to code.
As far as the "dummy" fuse, the most common application would be for the grounded phase of a corner grounded delta system. It would have to be designed and instended to be installed in place of a real fuse. As Bjarney pointed out there is a problem with using copper pipe or tubing as far as the size.
Don
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Don(resqcapt19)

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#85293 - 06/16/03 11:06 AM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Joe:
To delve in a little deeper...
Doing plan review, we receive a substantial number of "homeowner" permit applications, ranging from installing a receptacle, to pools, to service changes, and everything inbetween.
The homeowner is required/requested to submit a "sketch" with some basic pertinent info on what they propose to do. Some get it "right", some get a phone call requesting further info. Wiring methods, box sizes, circuit layout, etc. Talking to them on the phone can provide some input to their capability to do the work. If they appear to be totally "lost" we can reject the permit application, and have them obtain the services of a licensed EC. (This is within the boundries of the NJ Uniform Construction Code)

We rather they "mess-up" on paper, rather than have to rip out what they do/did wrong.

Talk about brown bag drawings????

John
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John

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#85294 - 06/16/03 01:26 PM Re: Plan Review, Specifications, and Permits
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Great idea guys.

Now would one of you please refer me to the electrical orginization that would back this, bring it to individual states legislature, and see it through?

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