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#85129 - 05/30/03 09:22 AM Proposed definition of Kitchen  
steve66  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 25
I don't like CMP1's proposed definition of kitchen 1-114: "An area used, or intended to be used, for the preperation of food." Sounds like this would include every employee break room we design since they all have a refrigerator and a microwave (no stove or range though). Then every outlet in the break room would have to be a GFCI. I don't like to make the one behind the refrigerator GFCI since it can't be easily tested or reset. (Not to mention what happens to the food in it if the GFCI trips).


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#85130 - 05/30/03 02:55 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Food easily replaced, people not so easy to replace.

I would not want to be on the receiving end of a shock that could have been prevented if the freshness of someone's baloney sandwich was not deemed more important then the safety of personnel.

As for cost, the more equipment we install the more we make, as long as all contractors are bidding per code you will still make money and win jobs. [Linked Image]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#85131 - 05/30/03 03:29 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,802
Brick, NJ USA
Gentlemen:
The refrigerator receptacle is a "dedicated appliance location", and does not require GFI protection, correct??

If the change referenced above is adopted, then a single receptacle, only for the 'fridge would not require GFI protection, correct?

A freezer, refrig, sump pump etc, should not be on a GFI protected outlet/circuit.
John


John

#85132 - 05/30/03 04:30 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
John the present requirement for dwelling units is for outlets that serve counter top outlets, so an outlet behind the fridge does not need a GFCI as you say.

But again I do not agree that the possible loss of food rates higher than the protection of personnel.

As an example 210.8(B)3 (new for 2002) requires all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt outlets in non-dwelling unit kitchens to have GFCI protection.

This includes all equipment and I have heard that there have been problems of tripping, and this may mean some food spoils, throw it out and replace it.

IMO this is a problem with the equipment and not the use of GFCIs and the equipment makers will have to do better.

Given some time these problems will get worked out and we will have safer installations as a result.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#85133 - 05/30/03 05:18 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,875
NY, USA
Bob,

Not trying to downplay the safety angle, but the same could be said for any appliance or piece of equipment but we don't go putting GFCI protection on our Dishwashers, Ovens, Furnaces, etc. that exist in the same type of situations as the Refrigerator/Freezer does.

I'd like to see more attention paid to getting GFCI protection in other areas like outside (regardless of occupancy type) or near sinks in classrooms.

Bill


#85134 - 05/30/03 05:54 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Bill I agree with you that there are many more areas that should require GFCIs.

I recently did a daycare facility and was surprised to find no requirement for GFCIs at the numerous sinks for diaper changing areas.

The baby could very well be undressed on a wet counter with their feet in a stainless sink and reach receptacles that did not have to be GFCI.

We tried to have the engineer delete them as we could not see a purpose for the outlets but we failed at that, we did use GFCIs here by choice.

As for the refrigerators, and this is just my opinion for what it worth.

In a dwelling and if truly a grounded outlet I do not see much to be gained by a using GFCI.

But if it is an old house with a two wire feed to the fridge I would think that using a GFCI here would increase the level of safety in a meaningful way, with no equipment ground at the refrigerator there should be no false tripping.

In commercial kitchens having seen the beating the cords of the equipment take, often ripped and torn at the connectors from moving the equipment daily for cleaning chores and also taking into account the equipment is often sitting on grounded metal counters but isloated on rubber or plastic feet I think GFCIs will be a great addition to safety.

Sorry for the long rant, Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#85135 - 05/30/03 06:17 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,875
NY, USA
Bob,

You do raise some good points. I can see more need for a GFCI in your 2 wire Resi example than on a commercial Kitcken refrigerator though, but that area may be subject to more abuse.

So, maybe the fence is a good spot to be on this issue.

BTW,
I wouldn't call that a long rant!

[Linked Image]
Bill


#85136 - 05/30/03 09:41 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Bob,
Quote
But if it is an old house with a two wire feed to the fridge I would think that using a GFCI here would increase the level of safety in a meaningful way, with no equipment ground at the refrigerator there should be no false tripping.

Use of a refrigerator in a dwelling unit on a two wire circuit is a violation of 250.114(3)(a). There is no execption that permits a two wire GFCI protected circuit to serve the refrigerator.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#85137 - 05/30/03 10:20 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
rat4spd  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 29
Waterloo, Ia
So all homes must be retrofit and brought up to code to prevent having a fridge on a two wire circuit?


#85138 - 05/30/03 10:52 PM Re: Proposed definition of Kitchen  
Gwz  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 197
There is many OLD 2W refrigerators still in service.

Is there a law to junk them ?


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