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#84219 - 03/15/03 11:31 AM Letter of the code?
harold endean Offline
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Here is a situation. What do you think? There is a partial renovation going on and it touches the powder room. The sheet rock has just a little coming off so the homeowner adds a 2 gang box which will hold the switch to the existing light and a new GFCI receptacle. The GFI though is on the existing 14 ga circuit. So I tell him that all bath recept. should be on 20 amp feeds. The homeowner says that the house is on a slab, and the rest of the house is finished. He can't get to the panel with out major damage to the house. He said if that was the case, then he wouldn't install the receptacle. He would just leave it out. What would you do?
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#84220 - 03/15/03 02:14 PM Re: Letter of the code?
HotLine1 Offline

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6833
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Try reading the "REHAB" section of our lovely UCC.
If the house is 366 days old.......
(One year & one day) he can do it!

Before you get upset.....
IMHO, I DO NOT agree with this part of 5:23.

The intent of the "Rehab" was to generate re-habing old structures in "the cities" to reduce the total dollar investment that would be required to bring this type of structure in compliance with the current NEC requirements.

We can discuss this further one on one if you care. I'll e-mail my phone numbers to you.

PS: "Cover for you" ????????????

#84221 - 03/15/03 04:55 PM Re: Letter of the code?
sparky Offline
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
someone has legislated around the 'letter' of the NEC

what else is there really to discuss John?
#84222 - 03/15/03 06:06 PM Re: Letter of the code?
Redsy Offline
Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA

One of the local municipalities that require Use & Occupancy Certificates for resale require a batroom receptacle be installed when one doesn't exist. They permit you to tap off the existing fixture. They reason that it is better than someone using an extension cord to a bedroom or hall receptacle. Food for thought?
#84223 - 03/16/03 01:11 PM Re: Letter of the code?
sparky66wv Offline
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2342
Loc: West Virginia
As far as older houses:

The thought of 1875 watt hairdryers plugged into a 15A cheap receptacle with who knows what other resistive-load device plugged into the second slot warming up... On old #14 wire with a 30 Amp fuse....

Makes me go "hmmmmmmmm"...
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#84224 - 03/16/03 03:09 PM Re: Letter of the code?
pauluk Offline
Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
On old #14 wire with a 30 Amp fuse....

You get in-wall heating at no extra cost! Gee, some people are never satisfied!
#84225 - 03/16/03 05:37 PM Re: Letter of the code?
Electricmanscott Offline
Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
Harold, I am in complete agreement with you here. There was no receptacle in the bathroom before the renovation. If you are installing one then you would absolutely have to install it to code which would require a 20 amp circuit and a gfci protected receptacle. I can't even begin to see the issue here.
#84226 - 03/16/03 07:01 PM Re: Letter of the code?
caselec Offline
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 557
Loc: San Jose, CA
So you require them to install a new circuit which might end up costing hundreds or even thousands in repairs to the house to get the circuit across the house. The homeowners will probably just say forget it we don't want the receptacle and wait until after the final inspection and add the receptacle themselves. They will then tell their friends and neighbors what the inspector wanted them to do which will discourage people from getting permits and inspections. This is a powder bath (1/2 bath) so a hair dryer will probably never be used since there is no shower or bath tub. The inspector needs to be reasonable and work with the homeowner not just go be the letter of the code. There are thousands of homes with 15 amp circuits feeding the bathroom receptacles I don't think one more will be the end of the world.

Curt Swartz
#84227 - 03/17/03 07:18 AM Re: Letter of the code?
harold endean Offline
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Actuall John is correct. In this state there is a "new" REHAB code which states that the homeowner DOES NOT have to install a receptacle. I also agree with John, that some of the inspectors don't agree with the rehab code. So in this instance I can pass the job BUT I will have to cite NJ Rehab code. since it is NOT code compliate to the NEC. Whether or not I like it is not up to me. The law is what I have to go by. This isn't the first time it has happened either. I walked into a house renovation (bathroom again) and the "new" GFI was on an existing circuit. I asked the homeowner why, and she said, "My brother is an inspector in South Jersey and he said that it is allowed under the Rehab Code. So again, I explained the pros and cons of having an outlet on existing circuits, passed the job and left. There are several states out there looking into our Rehab code. They thing it is great. IMHO I am not so sure about it.
#84228 - 03/17/03 07:36 AM Re: Letter of the code?
ElectricAL Offline
Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA

I appreciate your even handed approach! And I greatly appreciate your taking the moment to explain to the homeowner the pros and cons for doing more than the bare legal minimum!!! Keeps the pressure in the right direction.
Al Hildenbrand
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