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#83841 - 02/23/03 07:59 AM Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
Joe Tedesco Offline
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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
What are your thoughts when it comes to teaching the NEC?

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 02-23-2003).]
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
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#83842 - 02/23/03 09:14 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
sparky Offline
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
Joe,
i tire of the NEC's black/white doctrine, and the AHJ's captivity to it, as much of the NEC is without a shred of rationale

perhaps the answer is not the literal interpetation of each vowel & constonant of the NEC, but the efficy of the end result.
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#83843 - 02/23/03 09:29 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Sparky,
How do enforce the code if not to the letter, one persons idea of common sense is not the same as someone eles's, or do we just call you for your common sense.

Can you give an example of "much of the NEC is without a shred of rationale"

Bob
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Bob Badger
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#83844 - 02/23/03 10:16 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
Elzappr Offline
Member
Registered: 12/20/01
Posts: 270
Loc: Oregon
As an apprentice instructor I had to deal with several instances where a student pressed for clarification beyond everyone's social comfort level. I appreciated the fact that the class atmosphere was comfortable enough so that any studend felt free to speak their mind, and I tried --quite successfully, I suppose ;-) -- to not act like I knew it all, so that my vulnerability served as an invitation for them to challenge anything I might declare. I learned that the difficulties were visualization ones or simple sematic ones. The students take an indignant exception to anything that violates common sense. So, all that is needed is a clearer picture, so that the meaning is less reliant on words, but more on what they can see. Once I'm sure they were imaging the issue the same as me, then we could work on why the words were selected as they were.
I've never had a student dis me in any serious way, as long as I show that I respect that they are doing the best they can, with the imaginative tools they have available at the time.

There ARE times when people can flame a situation just for their own sick amusement though. I was at one conference where a guy was drunk, and belligerant, and was looking to stir up trouble. I guess that sort of thing has to be expected to eventually occur.

I suppose the foregoing just highlighted what the previous posters to this thread brought up. There's plenty of authoritative voice but little in interpretative nuance in a lot of code issues discussions, and that only serves to show disrespect to the free thinking, imaginative efforts of those who are trying to get a grip on what the code is about. As an instructor, I have found out that it is real easy to explain just what I understand, just the rationale that I think is behind a code article, and then quickly shift discussion before someone mulls it over and seeks clarification about grey areas where I have no ready answer. Such class manipulation is obvious to some of the sharper students, and they might not be willing to be dismissed so easily.
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#83845 - 02/23/03 10:52 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
If you have questions about the code and its content you can ask for a Formal Interpretation!

Quote:
90.6 Formal Interpretations.

To promote uniformity of interpretation and application of the provisions of this Code, formal interpretation procedures have been established and are found in the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects.





[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 02-23-2003).]
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#83846 - 02/23/03 11:15 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
WebSparky Offline
Member
Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 138
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Hi Joe,

Here is a code "common sense" question that was posed several years ago at a code class I was attending.

NEC 2002 358.30(A)and(B)

ie.
A breaker panel is mounted to a wall on 3/4" plywood and 16" to the right at the same elevation is a lighting contactor. The two are connected with 3/4" EMT. The length of the EMT is 16".

Does this piece of raceway need to be supported according to the NEC?

The way I read the code says that it is required.

What say you?
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#83847 - 02/23/03 11:27 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
I see i've aggitated the 'instructors' here, which is not my intent.

The NEC is far from perfect, and all the ROP's we can muster won't create a document applicable to everyone in every situation.

There are many arbitrary figures that exist in it simply due to member(s) in past history agreeing to a given figure.

i believe it was Mr.John Caloggero who brought up the rule of 6 in the MH forum as one of these.

another is 376.22's magic '30' , to which our Canadian counterparts have 200

many other examples exist without engineered figures to back them up

So you are right in that you can only reasonably enforce to the code's letter, and many on the BB's express this to extreeme degrees Bob

But do not expect our trade to blindly accept these naked king doctrines without being somewhat inquisitive.

Which is why some diplomacy may be appropo (i'm allowed to quote myself here right?)

Quote:
the efficy of the end result.


translation;
"what is the better job?"
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#83848 - 02/23/03 11:28 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Elzappr

I am sure that in your area up in the NW that the instruction must be performed by those who are qualified to teach, and I appreciate you reply.

When do you hold your classes?
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#83849 - 02/23/03 11:35 AM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
WebSparky

Quote:
The way I read the code says that it is required.

What say you?


I agree! It is required, but I would sleep and not flinch an eye if it was not supported. I'll use common sense sometimes too!
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
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#83850 - 02/23/03 12:05 PM Re: Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!
ga.sparky56 Offline
Member
Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 558
Loc: young harris georgia usa
The question I am most often asked by homeowners and GC's alike is WHY? A lot of times I, as I suspect others are,are put in the position of being contractor/electrician/ahj all rolled into 1 due to lack of an ahj.At times,quoting dry code does me no good if I can't back it up with reasoning.This is why I come here and continue to be a student and learn.Any suggestions other than keep trying to learn? Russell
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