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#83519 - 02/04/03 05:50 AM abandonment
ssilbers Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 1
Loc: Moorestown, NJ USA
My electrician says that the 2002 NEC code indicates that all abandoned wire & conduit must be removed. I can't find any reference to the subject. Can someone provide help?
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#83520 - 02/04/03 08:18 AM Re: abandonment
resqcapt19 Offline
Member
Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2148
Loc: IL
I know of no rule requiring conduit or power wiring to be removed. There are rules for some Chapter 7 and 8 installations. Look at 725.3(B), 760.3(A),770.3(A), 800.52(B), and 820.3(A). Also look at the definition of "Abandoned" in the xxx.2 section of each of these articles.
Don
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#83521 - 02/04/03 01:38 PM Re: abandonment
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
I can enforce the rule in the NEC that deals with the practical safguarding of people and property, and have the authority to insist that the abandonded wire, etc., be removed!

If I am the AHJ, you must follow my violation notices!

I can also call up the rule dealing with "other factors" found in 110.3(A)8!

I submitted a proposal to address this issue and again it was rejected.

Only one member of CMP 1 agreed with me, and I expect that we will see comments.

This issue is a very serious issue! Why in the past two days here in LA I walked to the convention center from my hotel on Grand avenue (THE PITS) and have taken many pictures, and I have about 6-10 so far showing damaged and abandonded wiring in tree wells, on the walls in a garage and other places showing abandonded LIVE wires.

I will put up a few soon .....



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 02-05-2003).]
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#83522 - 02/04/03 02:18 PM Re: abandonment
Bill Addiss Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3875
Loc: NY, USA
ssilbers,

Welcome to ECN,
Can you ask your Electrician to elaborate on the subject a bit? I'd be interested to hear his reasons for saying that too.

Bill
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#83523 - 02/04/03 03:11 PM Re: abandonment
Elec_VA Offline
Member
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 40
Loc: Sterling, VA, USA
When I do renovation jobs I cut back the conduit to be above ceiling, or concealed in some way, and remove all wires (I ALWAYS take the wires out and cap the ends at the closest j-box just in case someone decided to play around in a panel). From what I have been reading, any accesible telecom or tv wires MUST be removed since they present a danger due to the lack of air flow in accesible areas, but for some reason I have not found any article addressing existing electric. Common sense (I think) says pull it, but I have not found code that says it must be done. At a recent job some poor drywall guy put a nice hole in copper plumbing pipe that the GC said had been abandoned, but it wasn't. The finisher was pissed! Seems like there would be some code for electric conduit since I don't ever recall using EMT as a kick plate!
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#83524 - 02/04/03 03:15 PM Re: abandonment
Scotts Offline
Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 209
Loc: Ventura, CA, USA
As a side note. In my facility we would abandon a line, and then leave it up for future use. This happened many times because in a manufacturing plant change is constant. I thought that with an abandoned line you had to leave the covers off the J-boxes to show that it was abandoned. (I have no idea where this came from.) A cal/OSHA consulatation inspector said that we had to put the covers on to prevent a fire from spreading. He said that the fire could go in the open J-box and come out of the other open J-box and spread the fire.

Welcome to the board SS. Pop open a beverage, put your feet up and stay awhile.

Scott
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#83525 - 02/04/03 03:22 PM Re: abandonment
HotLine1 Offline


Member
Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6775
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Elec-Va:
Welcome to ECN.
My opinion on removal of abandoned wiring is basically the same as yours.
We remove whatever we can to leave/have a "clean" jobsite. We do this on "most" of our jobs. IF something appears to be useful for future use, we safe-off both ends, and tag it as to location and source.
I know that the '02 addresses removal of certain/most abandoned LV cabling, but the '02 NEC has not yet been adopted here in NJ.

How many times have all or most of us "opened" a drop ceiling panel only to be faced with the rat nest of LV cable, or how many times have we had to "clean it up"??

About time! If its "abandoned", "not used", "old", "from the previous two tenants" then it should go!!!
John
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#83526 - 02/04/03 03:33 PM Re: abandonment
txsparky Offline
Member
Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 552
Loc: Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
Based on this from the City of Conroe,Texas,I suppose it all comes down to individual inspectors preference;
Sec. 6-50. Same--To be done in workmanlike manner.
All work shall be executed in a neat and workmanlike manner.Slipshod, or work not in keeping with good electrical practice shall be classed as defective and shall be immediately corrected by persons causing same.





(Ord. of 2-13-51, ยง 7(A))




[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 02-04-2003).]

[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 02-04-2003).]
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#83527 - 02/04/03 03:49 PM Re: abandonment
Elec_VA Offline
Member
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 40
Loc: Sterling, VA, USA
HotLine1,
Here in VA, the state still goes of the '96 NEC, as do most municipalities. I like to do my work up to the newest code since there are so many jurisdictions in the DC area you never can tell. I think "go with the newest and sometimes the Inspector won't yell at you I despise going to some run down job where I know that every tile I lift will reign down debris and phone cable on my head. I guess that's why OSHA talks so highly of hard hats and safety glasses!

txsparky,
I lived in central TX (San Angelo) for a while, and I noticed that 110.12 (02' NEC) for "To be done in workmanlike manner." is very much subject to who looks at the work, which I assume is the same in most places. Can be a nasty little code, which is why I use it on my guys a lot. A little pride goes a long way.
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Pete
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#83528 - 02/04/03 05:16 PM Re: abandonment
resqcapt19 Offline
Member
Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2148
Loc: IL
Joe,
What reason did the CMP give for rejecting the proposal?
However, without a code rule, I don't think that an inspector can require these abandoned wires to be removed. I think that you could insist that they not be connected to a power source, but beyond that you are making your own code and an inspector can't do that. If an inspector came on my job and insisted on me doing something that was not required by the code and threatened to "make my life miserable" if I didn't comply, I'd be in court requesting a permanent injunction banning that inspector from ever inspecting any of my jobs because of the threatened harassment.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 02-04-2003).]
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