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#83264 - 01/24/03 05:45 PM AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
Joe Tedesco Offline
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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
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#83265 - 01/24/03 05:59 PM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
txsparky Offline
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Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 552
Loc: Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
There'll be alot of "AW SH@@S" over that decision!
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#83266 - 01/24/03 07:22 PM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
ga.sparky56 Offline
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Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 558
Loc: young harris georgia usa
We've used them for a couple of years now,have had no problems,except ones of our own making.Granted we don't do the volume that most of you guys do,but probably used 100 or so with no problems.Siemens or G.E. usally.
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#83267 - 01/25/03 12:14 AM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
txsparky:

Your personal opinions should be included in public comments to NFPA on the ROP for the 2005 NEC ROC.

You should tell the NEC Committee CMP 2 of your concerns and why you disagree!

Quote:
There'll be alot of "AW SH@@S" over that decision!


If you send in a public comment, the substantiation should include the reasons why you don't support AFCI's and their use in dwelling occupancies.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 01-25-2003).]
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#83268 - 01/25/03 04:39 AM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
txsparky Offline
Member
Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 552
Loc: Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
Joe,
I don't have a problem with the use of the afci.My comment was directed towards past discussions here and all of those who oppose them.I see them increasing a contractors profit through material mark-up.IMO,if you install them in every house in the country,and they save 1 life,then they've paid for themselves.I followed the discussions here closely as well as Mike Holt's opinions and early on formed my opinion on them.
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#83269 - 01/25/03 05:27 AM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
iwire Offline
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Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
After reading all the links Joe provided above, in my mind all the problems that have been brought up where addressed.

So for me it comes down to this, if we start putting these AFCIs in today will we make any one LESS safe?

I did not see anything in the posts that would suggest they are not safe.

If we start putting these AFCIs in today will we make any one MORE safe?

IMHO without a doubt, no matter if 50% do not work in 7 years, or nobody pushes the test button, or 90% of the problems are the wrong type of arc.

With all that against AFCIs, lives will still be saved.

And until they go in large numbers improvements will not come.

The price, quality, function will all improve with time, yes the learning curve is a pain but it will not be that bad, this is the stuff that keeps the job interesting don't you think.
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#83270 - 01/25/03 10:24 AM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
If someone opts to use AFCIs in lieu of rewiring an old K&T or ragwire house, and a resulting possible series arc causes a blaze that kills the occupant(s), then yes, I would have to say that they are a bad thing and have the potential to hurt someone by not doing what the name suggests that they do.

When they start putting "Surgeon General's Warnings" on them spelling out to Joe Public that they won't detect the very scenario that is most likely to cause a fire (loose terminals, splices, connections), then I'll be for 'em.

In the mean time, I'll keep installing them.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 01-25-2003).]
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#83271 - 01/25/03 12:22 PM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
George Offline
Member
Registered: 02/23/02
Posts: 375
The CPSC has the job of protecting us.

I believe that in several years when there is data available they will publish some data as to the number of lives saved.


Remember that ACFIs only protect against one type of electrical fire cause and only it appears in bedrooms.

While there is a claim of lots of electrical fires and related deaths, there is no claim of expected fires prevented or lives saved.

I expect that ACFIs might raise the cost of wiring a house by $50-100 and with several 100 thousand homes built each year that makes life saving real expensive unless a lot of lives are saved.
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#83272 - 01/25/03 02:34 PM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
sparky66wv,

So if I understand your view, Unless they are perfect and can recognize all arcs we should not put them in.

I just can not understand that point of view.

Even if they only work 10% of the time isn't that better then not installing them at all?

As far as your scenario that someone will choose not to rewire because they have AFCIs we can not control peoples bad decisions.

But we can provide them with the newest safety devices even if not perfected.

What was your feeling about GFCIs when they where put into the code, I seem to remember that they where far from perfect when they first came out?

Did you think that people would start taking baths with their hair dryers because they where told GFCIs would protect them? This to me is the same logic as they won't rewire because they have AFCIs

And sparky66wv please do not take this personally the fact that you have over 2000 posts says a lot about how much you care about your trade, I wish I could get help that cared that much


George,

Quote

"I expect that ACFIs might raise the cost of wiring a house by $50-100 and with several 100 thousand homes built each year that makes life saving real expensive unless a lot of lives are saved"

No mater how many homes are built it is still only $50-$100 (your numbers) per house, that is how most of us price jobs not by the total of all houses.

Can you tell me what the value of one life is?

I would say if we install AFCIs in "several 100 thousand homes built each year" we will save some lives.

Bob
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#83273 - 01/25/03 04:31 PM Re: AFCI's Are Here to Stay!
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
refer to "The Truth aboutAFCI's" pg 64 Jan/Feb 02' IAEI per Mr. George Gregory and Mr. Alan Manche
(both Sq. D employees)
note the 75A threshold comes out of the closet, something not apparent per UL1699 back in 1999 when my state first started installing these devices.

They are here to stay, that i'm convinced of.

Pick up a trade mag, any trade mag, and you'll realize all promotional articles are written by company reps.

All the stat's , cost/benifit analysis, all the pro's shine.

There exists no unbiased 'consumer reports' for our trade that openly scrutinizes any manufacturer right? That's because all these rags you get in the mail( most for free) are promoted by them.

Sure they're here to stay, and whatever else they wish will also......they've hammered this consistently for the last 4+ years , probably to a hefty $$$, but only due to thier projected PE ratio's, not your or little susie's safety.

The ad's don't need to make sense either, the pogniant picture of a firefighter hauling a child out of a burning building
(with the CH or SQ D logo in the background)
should be nuff said to shut down any nay sayer(s)

These sorts wrap themselves in a cloak of 'safety' while peddaling thier wares, while an arsenal of marketing and engineering discredits any dissident.

They know most the tradeborg will eventually be conditioned to the 'just one life' or similar sound bytes, and not delve into serious debate here.

How ironic it is to own older NEC's that the manufacturer's would advertise in, as opposed to present day, where the manufacturer's CMP seats write the codes, and the NEC advertises it'spublications.



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-25-2003).]
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