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#80603 - 05/01/02 09:02 PM Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
<rant>

I was helping Musser at the Greenbrier Hotel today, we were working on landscape lights, and the GFCI receptacle to feed them, when the question came up for whether the GC/owner/powers-that-be wanted the U ground up or down.

Joe (Musser) went to go find out, and came back with a carpenter/foreman who started explaining to me that "it was code to put them in ground up because if something falls... blah blah blah... we're all (mostly all) familiar with the convincing argument... that is, if it weren't for night lights (polarized plugs) CO detectors (plug-in type) and right-angle appliance cords, it would be a good practice.

However, we got into a rather heated (getting to the point of getting defensive on both parties...) "discussion" on whether or not it was a code requirement.

Joe piped in to say that we'd be more than happy to put them in ground up (and we were) but I didn't want someone going around beleiving that it was code, and telling others that it is code.

I read every article in the 2002 NEC concerning receptacles (again) just to make sure, and now I'm on a search for the ROP's that I could print out and SHOW the man that the very argument was presented and rejected (as it always is every three years...).

*out of breath*
</rant>

Any help out there? The old link to the ROP's that Bill had on here are no longer working...



Thanks guys and gals...

-Virgil
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
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2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#80604 - 05/01/02 09:12 PM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
Awww shoot... I guess I should say, the 2001 ROP's...

(I read Don's answer in another thread...)
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
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#80605 - 05/01/02 09:53 PM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
Bill Addiss Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3875
Loc: NY, USA
Quote:

(Log #1043)
2- 24 - (210-7(g)): Reject
SUBMITTER: Randall S. Bell, Greenwood, IN
RECOMMENDATION: I would like to propose that Receptacles have to be ground up.
SUBSTANTIATION: I have looked and studied that it would be safer for people. I think it would be a very good thing for the NEC to adopt this proposal.
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: There is no evidence to support a required orientation of the ground pin for a receptacle outlet. The panel notes that receptacles have been installed with the ground pin up, down, and horizontally for many years with no established trend of one orientation being safer than the other.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 12
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 12

Virgil,

I uploaded the ROP for this so that you can download it.
Article 210 ROP 514k PDF

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 05-02-2002).]
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#80606 - 05/01/02 10:24 PM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
Thanks!

You da man!

_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
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#80607 - 05/02/02 04:11 AM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
Redsy Offline
Member
Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2056
Loc: Bucks County PA
He is a carpenter!
Would he take mandates regarding his trade from you?
Any time someone tells you to do something because "it's code", simply asjk for the article or hand them a book and ask them to show you.
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#80608 - 05/02/02 06:54 AM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
Oh, it gets better, I stopped him in the middle of his speech to tell him that he was in err, he replied something like "well, a master told me..." in which I interrupted him again to inform him that I was a master, contractor, and the local inspectors call me for advice...

He was still adamant that it was code...

Joe said that the "master" was probably his brother or something, which could do no wrong, of course...

Oh, and I did say something about going to the truck to get the book and he could show me, but that was hem-hawed (obviously).

I'm still upset about this.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-02-2002).]
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
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#80609 - 05/02/02 04:58 PM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
Quote:
and he could show me, but that was hem-hawed (obviously).


I too tire of other trades imposing thier code specific's without validation, to the point that i purchased the handbook on disc.
{The single code i e-mail the most is 110.26.}
Virgil, you seem very much in the same 'rural' boat as i, having to defend your trade and tradesmanship with little to no backup.
Give the mule the url here, like Redsy said , he's a carpenter........


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#80610 - 05/02/02 05:48 PM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
Electricmanscott Offline
Member
Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: Holden, MA USA
Very interesting. The part I find most intruiging is that you actually went looking for someone to ask which way they wanted the grounds. Thats just asking for trouble!
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#80611 - 05/02/02 08:59 PM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
The houses are lifetime-lease million dollar vacation houses at a five star resort. (You lease 'em for $1M, then when you die, the Greenbrier gets it back and leases it again...) We're trying like heck to impress, so we give them choices where there are choices.
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
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#80612 - 05/03/02 09:59 AM Re: Report On Proposals for 2002, Grounds up or Down...
Reel-Break Offline
Member
Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 178
Loc: nc
This one will get most carpenters:Ask them if they`re an expert on reading a tape measuring device(stanly 25') If you look at about the 19" mark there`s a diamond shaped mark on the tape very few actually know what it`s for.If they don`t know walk away shaking your head and you`re telling me how to do electrical work.If they do,better think quick.It`s got me out of a few jams with the know all tradesmen.
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