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#80135 - 03/04/02 07:42 AM Still no GFI....  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
It would seem a hardwired pool,spa,hot tub
( anything referencing parts 1 & 2)would still in the 02' not require GFI protection....

why?

I'd like to be told i'm reading this wrong

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
(A) Receptacles.
(1) Circulation and Sanitation System, Location. Receptacles that provide power for water-pump motors or for other loads directly related to the circulation and sanitation system shall be located at least 3.0 m (10 ft) from the inside walls of the pool, or not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) from the inside walls of the pool if they meet all of the following conditions:
(1) Consist of single receptacles
(2) Employ a locking configuration
(3) Are of the grounding type
(4) Have GFCI protection
(2) Other Receptacles, Location. Other receptacles shall be not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from the inside walls of a pool.
(3) Dwelling Unit(s). Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one 125-volt 15- or 20-ampere receptacle on a general-purpose branch circuit shall be located not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from and not more than 6.0 m (20 ft) from the inside wall of the pool. This receptacle shall be located not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 6 in.) above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the pool.
(4) Restricted Space. Where a pool is within 3.0 m (10 ft) of a dwelling and the dimensions of the lot preclude meeting the required clearances, not more than one receptacle outlet shall be permitted if not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) measured horizontally from the inside wall of the pool.
(5) GFCI Protection. All 125-volt receptacles located within 6.0 m (20 ft) of the inside walls of a pool or fountain shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Receptacles that supply pool pump motors and that are rated 15 or 20 amperes, 120 volt through 240 volts, single phase, shall be provided with GFCI protection.


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 03-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 03-04-2002).]


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#80136 - 03/04/02 07:58 PM Re: Still no GFI....  
HIGHVOLTAGE  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 38
Okay sparky I'm going to jump into this one
try 680.44 then check with 680.2 and hopefully it's just a big spash and I don't hit my head!!

I would think they would ALL require it , but this is not the case , you just have to make sure


#80137 - 03/04/02 08:03 PM Re: Still no GFI....  
HIGHVOLTAGE  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 38
OUTLET,,,,Definition ,,,,A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


#80138 - 03/05/02 06:58 AM Re: Still no GFI....  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Thank you HV, the commentary to 680.44 is as follows...however, i do not believe it can definitionally be made to stick to a permanent pool per sect 1 & 2.

The requirements of 680.44 specify that field-assembled spas and hot tubs with heater loads of 50 amperes or less are to be GFCI protected. Spas and hot tubs utilizing voltages over 250 volts or 3-phase power are not required to have GFCI protection because GFCI devices are not available in all voltage, amperage, and phasing arrangements. Combination spa-pool or hot tub-pool arrangements are not required to have GFCI protection if they share a common bonding grid.

why can't one of these be used for 3 ph ?

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


#80139 - 03/07/02 12:22 AM Re: Still no GFI....  
HIGHVOLTAGE  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 38
Ok,,,Why??? The answer I will try to get for you at the next meeting with the boy's

as for a guess, which is all i have for now ,
how many 3ph over 250v motors have you seen or heard of that were within 100' of the pool or had or the chance to have any affect if anything went wrong of putting someone in danger,
now this is just a guess.

also,,, we do in our have a book which contains the in-depth findings for or against changes made or not made in the NEC.

I will check there too , someplace there is an answer to the "Why's?"
HV


#80140 - 03/07/02 07:02 AM Re: Still no GFI....  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
The {why's} are what seems dwelled on the most. As most of us in the field are not privy to this, any insights are welcome....
[Linked Image]


#80141 - 03/24/02 11:05 PM Re: Still no GFI....  
NonLinearLoad  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 53
McHenry, IL. USA
680.22 is refencing a utility type receptacle, so the folks aren't using the outlet set-up for pool/spa pumps. They set up power to be accessible for the stereo, other utility tools for yard work etc., I have had to install these additional outlets when I went to set up the pool/spa and there were no existing outlets anywhere to be seen, the distances are pretty critical too, use the tape measure with utmost caution!
There is unit made by if I'm correct Milbank,that has GFI protection that uses one leg of the circuit to detect groundfaults and it energizes a contactor to make the feed into the spa. Typical spa goes with the 50A rating, yet when you open the cover you need 40A supply, safe way to cover yourself is to pull 2-#6's,1-#8,1-#10, this will cover all configurations of typical spas. Need the ground rod as close as possible, solid #8 is the best, but usually hard to keep a nice clean install appearance, and always test-test-test upon completion, make that roy trip in all scenarios, looks great, too bad it ain't working properly said the lawyer!

[This message has been edited by NonLinearLoad (edited 03-24-2002).]


#80142 - 03/25/02 10:27 PM Re: Still no GFI....  
NonLinearLoad  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 53
McHenry, IL. USA
O.k. I finally brought my NEC in the house.
ART.680:
680.5 Ground-Fault Circuit Interupters.
680.6 Grounding (2),(3),(4),(5),(6),(7).
680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.
680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.
680.42 Outdoor Installations. (A)(1) LFMC max. length 6'. (A)(2) GFCI for cords 15' or less.
680.44 Protection. Except as otherwise provided in this section, the outlet(s) that supply a self-contained spa or hot tub, a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly, or a field-assembled spa or hot tub shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interupter.
The language is clearly stated, unless you fit into (A)(B)or(C), the spa or hot tub must be protected!
A GFCI breaker will do with a disconnect located as in this article, yet some smart electrician came up with a combo unit to make life simple. The cost of parts between the fancy disconnect and a GFCI breaker w/ a/c disconnect is within a few $$$$, the GFCI 50A 240v disconnect is a sweet deal for the installer.


#80143 - 03/25/02 10:48 PM Re: Still no GFI....  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,875
NY, USA
NonLinearLoad,

You mentioned a ground rod. What is this for and where is it required?

Bill


#80144 - 03/26/02 06:08 AM Re: Still no GFI....  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Fella's, for purposes of my original inquiry please stick to part 1 of 680....
This handbook commentary is after 680.22..


All single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere, 120 through 240 receptacles that supply swimming pool pump motors are required to have GFCI protection. While this requirement applied only to installations at other than dwellings in the 1999 Code, the 2002 Code has been revised to require GFCI protection of these receptacles for all swimming pool installations. It should be noted that this requirement applies to these receptacles regardless of their proximity to the swimming pool, and it applies only to cord-and-plug-connected pump motors.

ironically, it would seem i could hardwire a permanant pool pump motor non-GFI while being required to have all proximal receptacles GFI.......

note it states receptacles, not outlets .......

note also, any voltage over 240...no GFI

" " , any 3 phase..............no GFI

" " , any ampacity over 20A......no GFI

Quote
as for a guess, which is all i have for now ,
how many 3ph over 250v motors have you seen or heard of that were within 100' of the pool or had or the chance to have any affect if anything went wrong of putting someone in danger,
now this is just a guess.


I know of one in the raging metropolis of Chester, it is installed in what was a dry location 30+ yrs ago, but endures regular wet downs from old water lines that give out, as well as a concrete floor that has succumbed to hydrostatic pressure...a pix, of said motor( and it's condition) to grace this forums appropriate section would surely bring remarks. Yet a new install tommorrow would require no more protection than it had recieved 30 yrs ago. why? [Linked Image] because statistically the body count [Linked Image] has been minimal...One would think that if the protection is marketable and available it would then be seen as viable ROP foder right? fallacy, fallacy, fallacy.........
(he's off his meds again.---Ed)

Quote
There is unit made by if I'm correct Milbank,that has GFI protection that uses one leg of the circuit to detect groundfaults and it energizes a contactor to make the feed into the spa.


links? ph#'s? ......

(go to your room--Ed)

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 03-26-2002).]


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